Again the topic of weight of amps


I see this has been covered but not recently.
I have had a few amps in the 100+ pound range.
I liked them enormously but I am in a small space and am tired of dealing with these behemoths when I need to move them around and the real estate they take up. They were all wonderful in their way and I would like to have kept them but for their immobility. But can one find true love after such heavy weights with a feather weight 55 pounder?
Have technological advances in 2019 made such a thing possible? I had a pass 350.8 which I loved but you can't keep a Stonehenge rock in an apartment living room.

roxy1927
Bryston 4B cubed @ 57.5 pounds
There's a number of great Class D integrateds, as well as smaller modern A/AB integrateds as well.

I am running a Luxman right now and very happy. Weighs in at 55 lbs.
For years i used a Krell FPB 700cx as my main amp (180 lbs), moved it from the US to Europe, and took it for day long drives 
 on 3 occasions for repairs, swore i wold never go that heavy 
again. Now my main amp is a MBL 9011 (223 lbs) hoping to add
a second at some point. The Krell is still hanging around relegate
to subwoofer duty. Big amps just sound best in my system.
Go figure !
I hear you.  That's why I got Belles Aria monoblocks.  They are back- and apartment-friendly.
Hello roxy1927,

     You’re a perfect candidate for class D. Here’s an excellent pair of D-Sonic M3a-600-M mono-blocks for $2,150/pair, 800 watts at 8 ohms, 1,350 at 4 ohms,brand new, 3 year warranty, rca and xlr inputs,a 30-day free in-home trial period and 10 pounds each. Check out the specs, I think you’ll be surprised.

https://www.d-sonic.com/products/m3a-600m-mono-amplifier-per-channel.html

     I’ve been using the earlier model of these, the M3-600-M monos for about the last 4 years on a pair of Magnepan 2.7QRs and they sound very similar to my previous 85 pound Aragon class AB stereo amp but with better bass, a quieter background, more detail, better dynamics and an even smoother mid-range and treble. Mine are excellent amps and I believe these newer ones are even better. 
     They use so little juice I just leave them on 24/7. Of course, they’re not going to sound as good as your Pass 350.8 but they both combined weigh about 110 pounds less and they run much cooler. You may want to read some

Tim
Roxy, what you want is the Schiit Vidar x 2. An amp that is 22 lbs and does 400 watts in mono block mode.

Only caveat is it needs to be connected to the pre with XLR cables for mono operation. Class a/b, made in USA, 5 yr warranty. Worth a look.  
Get a "feather-weight" 55 pounder, it will still sound better than any cheap chip amp, and will have a BOM far more commensurate with the price.
the last SS amp I owned was a Pass X250 - boxing that thing up was tough on my compressed deflated discs....my current (since 2011) Music Reference RM10 MkII weighs 15 pounds and sounds every bit as good and adds tube magic w/the right speakers....rock solid reliability and dead quiet.....I can't believe somebody hasn't bought the unit for sale here now
I have Audia flight Strumento #4 MK2 power amp it weighs over 200 pounds but sounds wonderful.I had Pass 350.8 before that it was a great amp as well weight only about 127 pounds.Your correct small amps are eiser to move but none i heard sounded as good as the heavy weights.
DNM and Resolution Audio products are very light and are not Class D!
@pehare, thanks for bringing the RM-10 to my attention. I check the new listings everyday, but somehow missed it on Saturday. It's 25/35w/ch (there are two versions of it) might not be enough for the OP's speaker demands, but it's THE amp for the old QUAD ESL.
Music Reference RM9 MKII is a classic tube amp, weighing in at 60 Lbs and works with a variety of tubes (EL34, KT66, KT77, KT88 and KT90).  Can be found on the used market for $2.5K, give or take.  I've had mine for about three years and have no intention on changing.
Benchmark AHB-2, maybe a pair in mono?
-JP


I got a Carver M500t, 251 watts per channel x 2, at 23 lbs, produced in the mid 1980s  Nice musical sound.  I like the big meters.

     Encouraging the OP to not at least give a good class D amp a free in-home audition for a month is just willful ignorance, akin to encouraging not hiring the most intelligent and competent black job applicant because of their skin color.  

     Failure to consciously keep an open mind and failing to evaluate all viable amp solutions based exclusively on their performance merits, not only demonstrates a lack of confidence, mental weakness, a lack of intellectual curiosity and willful ignorance, these mental afflictions also are capable of preventing the OP from discovering an ideal amp solution.

Tim
Bel Canto S300 or Bel Canto monoblocks - Class D
The Music Reference RM-200 Mk.2 is slightly over 40 lbs. unboxed, and is an excellent tube amp for low impedance loudspeakers. It puts out 100w/ch at both 8 and 4 ohms.
I have the McIntosh MC601 monoblocks 600watts, only 95lbs each.
Berning amps are very light!
roxy1927
I have had a few amps in the 100+ pound range.
I liked them enormously but I am in a small space and am tired of dealing with these behemoths when I need to move them around and the real estate they take up.

If you’ve got speakers that can be bi-amped a Schiit Aegir 20w Class-A on the mids and highs and a Schiit Vidar for the bass, both amps are proper linear solid state with linear power supplies, not big (about the size of a shoe box each) or heavy or expensive. $1500 for both.
You’d have to use a passive like the $49 Schiit SYS on the input of the Vidar to equal both amps gain, as it’s higher gain at 22db than the Aegir at 12db. Then your active preamp volume control would be the master and drive both the SYS and the Aegir inputs.
https://www.schiit.com/products/aegir
https://www.schiit.com/products/vidar

Cheers George
I suspect Michael Green might be on to something when he says he went to very low mass systems, especially low mass amplifiers. If thy eye 👁 offend thee pluck it out. It’s no secret that big honking transformers produce toxic magnetic fields that distort the sound and that transformers produce mechanical vibration that affects everything in the chassis, especially given that transformers are bolted down to the chassis.
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Yes, Class D amp technology enables amps to be much more efficient and much smaller. For high end, check out Bel Canto ref600m amps for example. Or even the Fosi amps on Amazon, which are most affordable and about the size of a pack of cigarettes.
mapman"Class D amp technology enables amps to be much more efficient and much smaller."

Now as soon as they can get them to sound like music and compete with real amplifiers intended, designed, and manufactured for use in Music Reproduction Systems then they will really have something.

Class d is ok for subwoofer amplifiers at least until you compare them to something better such as Bryston or Pass. 
I agree with clearthink on the issue of Class D amps. Havent heard one yet that I have liked. 
@ebm You're long overdue to post your system on here that Audia amp sounds very cool!
@roxy1927 Unless I missed it you didn't say what speakers you'll be driving with your new amp?
Like any amp, some people like certain Class D amps and some do not. Some do not like any though I would tend to doubt they have heard them all. Only way to find out is to identify candidates and try one like I did to test the waters.

Nevertheless, they do solve the size and weight problem and that was a big reason why I decided to try. That and see what the latest, greatest technology could do compared to others.

Myself, I have three now ranging in price from $85 to $6000 retail and have been listening contently with these now for ~ 10 years, and I’ve pretty much heard it all over the years.


I certainly havent heard them all but I have heard some which were considered top shelf. What I find encouraging is that a well know tube preamp/amp manufacturer who I really respect is experimenting with these type of amps.
clearthink: "Class d is ok for subwoofer amplifiers at least until you compare them to something better such as Bryston or Pass."

jsautter: "I agree with clearthink on the issue of Class D amps. Havent heard one yet that I have liked."

Hello clearthink and jsautter,

It’s funny how outdated you both sound. There’s been very good class D amps on the market for at least the last 5 years, maybe longer, such as Bel Canto, Merrill Audio, D-Sonic, Red Dragon, Wyred 4 Sound, Channel Islands, any of the DIY amp kits using the Hypex NCore power modules and others I’m probably forgetting. You both obviously just lack the experience of listening to a good class D amp. After all, you don’t know what you don’t know, right?
It’s just a shame that, with no experience listening to good class D amps, you’re both willing to spread outdated and no longer accurate information. It is true that they all generally have exceptionally good bass response, when compared to the other traditional amp types, since they typically have very high damping factors.
What you both apparently don’t realize however, is that good class D amps generally share other qualities such as very low distortion and background noise levels which results in very high levels of detail, very high power and dynamic range capacity, very neutral sonic presentations with nothing added or subtracted from the inputted signals as well as midrange and treble responses that are detailed, accurate and natural without being harsh or bright.
The above is an accurate description of what I’ve experienced owning and listening to good class D amps both in my own system and many others I’ve listened to. Hopefully, both of you will be able to listen to a good class D amp soon to update and broaden your knowledge and experience.
Oh yeah, I just realized I almost forgot to mention all the other non-sound quality benefits of class D amps, which are relative affordability, small size, low weight, high electrical efficiency, low electricity consumption and low operating temps.

Tim
Tim deParavicini of EAR-Yoshino says he can predict the bass sound an amplifier produces by looking at the size of it’s transformers. Transformer design is an art, requiring a compromise between various considerations. Too small and the bass suffers, too big and the highs do. Capacitance, inductance, etc., have to be balanced against each other.
Tim deParavicini of EAR-Yoshino says he can predict the bass sound an amplifier produces by looking at the size of it’s transformers.
That’s a bit of a furphy, there’s much more to it than just that, he not giving the whole story.

Feedback, output impedance, current ability, and damping factor, are parameters that effect bass and it’s control.

Cheers George
@geoffkait 
It’s no secret that big honking transformers produce toxic magnetic fields that distort the sound and that transformers produce mechanical vibration that affects everything in the chassis, especially given that transformers are bolted down to the chassis.
I believe I have heard of amplifiers that have a separate case for the transformer but I cannot think of a specific example right now.

noble100
"
It’s funny how outdated you both sound...You both obviously just lack the experience of listening to a good class D amp...with no experience listening to good class D amps, you’re both willing to spread outdated and no longer accurate information...Hopefully, both of you will be able to listen to a good class D amp soon"

What is funny is how you are convinced you know what I have listened to when in fact you have no idea what I have listened to and simply can not believe that what you like is not what others like and that many people think Class D has a long way to go before it can equal the consistent, reliable, superior performance of most conventional designs and I base that observation and conclusion upon listening to a variety of Class D amplifiers.
mitch2
@geoffkait
It’s no secret that big honking transformers produce toxic magnetic fields that distort the sound and that transformers produce mechanical vibration that affects everything in the chassis, especially given that transformers are bolted down to the chassis.
I believe I have heard of amplifiers that have a separate case for the transformer but I cannot think of a specific example right now.

>>>>Michael Green says he removes the transformer and places it far away from the amplifier, connecting them with long wires. An enclosure for the transformer would be fine as long as the enclosure was a low frequency high permeability alloy. I.e., mu metal. Two enclosures would be even better. 🤗
bdp24:
"Tim deParavicini of EAR-Yoshino says he can predict the bass sound an amplifier produces by looking at the size of it’s transformers."

Good morning,
    If Tim deParavicini of EAR-Yoshino is as smart and knowledgeable as I think he is and heard a good class D amp in the last 5 years, I doubt he still believes or states that.  I believe that's an old quote he made back in the 1990s referring to conventional tube and solid state amps at that time, not more recent class D amps.

Tim



I have great bass - slam, articulation and plumpness, the whole nine yards, and am using a Sony Walkman CD player. Consequently I don’t buy into the theory that the transformer has to be large. 
On account of the fact that our amps don't have output transformers, they tend to be lighter than other tube amps that make the same power. For example our 140 watt amp weighs 36 pounds.
It’s no secret that big honking transformers produce toxic magnetic fields that distort the sound and that transformers produce mechanical vibration that affects everything in the chassis, especially given that transformers are bolted down to the chassis.
If they do the transformer was poorly spec'ed!
Nope, they all do. That’s why it’s important to wrap the transformers in mu metal. Of course you can ignore or dismiss the whole issue. I really don’t care. Even toroidal transformers that supposedly don’t emit magnetic fields do, in fact, leak. Been there, done that.
Hello geoffkait,

    I agree, I don't buy into the theory that the transformers have to be large, either.  The primary reason class D amps have such good bass response is their typical high damping factors, often >1,000, which is directly related to how well an amp is able to control the movement of bass drivers and panels.
    The other bugaboo often mentioned by some is the switch mode power supply (smps) used by some class D amps.   All the class D amps I own have typical linear amp power supplies using toroidal transformers but that's just a coincidence and not intentional, I know from personal experience the smps performs just as well as a power supply on the amps I've heard.

Tim
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clearthink:
"Noble 100,What is funny is how you are convinced you know what I have listened to when in fact you have no idea what I have listened to and simply can not believe that what you like is not what others like and that many people think Class D has a long way to go before it can equal the consistent, reliable, superior performance of most conventional designs and I base that observation and conclusion upon listening to a variety of Class D amplifiers."

Hello clearthink,
     Okay, fair enough.  Why don't you enlighten us on some of the class D amps you've listened to and their supposed specific shortcomings in your opinion?  
     I realize all amp types have their specific strengths and weaknesses, 
it's beneficial to match one's amp with one's speakers and vice versa for optimum performance and an individual's choice of an amp is often a subjective one based on perceived sound qualities.  I know these factors were responsible for my choice of which amps to utilize in my system.  I expect, encourage and prefer others to make their specific amp choices based on these same factors.  
     Sure, I've encouraged others to consider auditioning good class D amps in their systems by accurately and honestly describing how well they've performed in my system.  But big deal, so what? and sue me! 
     It's all been, and will continue to be, solid and truthful advice given with my sincere intention that it may be helpful to others.  Of course, whether they follow my advice is beyond my control and, therefore, also my concern.


Tim
      
     

clearthink:
"Noble 100,What is funny is how you are convinced you know what I have listened to when in fact you have no idea what I have listened to and simply can not believe that what you like is not what others like and that many people think Class D has a long way to go before it can equal the consistent, reliable, superior performance of most conventional designs and I base that observation and conclusion upon listening to a variety of Class D amplifiers."

Hello clearthink,
    Okay, fair enough. Why don't you enlighten us on some of the class D amps you've listened to and their supposed specific shortcomings in your opinion?  
    I realize all amp types have their specific strengths and weaknesses,
it's beneficial to match one's amp with one's speakers and vice versa for optimum performance and an individual's choice of an amp is often a subjective one based on perceived sound qualities. I know these factors were responsible for my choice of which amps to utilize in my system. I expect, encourage and prefer others to make their specific amp choices based on these same factors.  
    Sure, I've encouraged others to consider auditioning good class D amps in their systems by accurately and honestly describing how well they've performed in my system. But big deal, so what? and sue me!
    It's all been, and will continue to be, solid and truthful advice given with my sincere intention that it may be helpful to others. Of course, whether they follow my advice is beyond my control and, therefore, also my concern.


Tim
Yes Tim, the Paravicini transformer/bass quote was from quite a while ago. I heard it second-hand from Roger Modjeski (who said he didn’t completely agree with Tim P on that subject), and I think it was said to make a point, not to be taken literally. It was said in reference to when Tim was designing amps for Luxman, whose competition at that time were other Japanese mass-market brands, many of whom skimped on their transformers. Tim’s EAR-Yoshino transformers are real works of art.
I heard it second-hand from Roger Modjeski (who said he didn’t completely agree with Tim P on that subject)
Because Roger knows it’s more than "just that", like I last posted.

Cheers george
Hello bdp24,
     Yes, I've heard about Tim deParavicini's obsession with his hand wound transformers but haven't had the pleasure of listening to one of his amps.  I'd  be very interested on his thoughts on the design and performance of  the latest crop of good class D amps. 
     Or a discussion between a top tube and ss amp designer like him and a top class D amp designer like Bruno Putzeys.  For example, Bruno claims he can build a class D amp to sound however he wants.  I know nothing about amp design of any type, but I'd be very interested in hearing them discuss this, especially when the subject of transformers comes up.

Tim 
One can’t help wondering if Tim P. controls the wire for his hand wound transformers for directionality. 🤔 Probably not. That would be too coincidental.

Both Tim deParavicini and Roger Modjeski are students of transformer design, a dying art. And both are, though as audiophile-centric as any other designers out there, old school in many ways (the higher the measured distortion, output impedance, power supply ripple, etc., the worse the sound quality of an amplifier. There is a direct relationship, not a coincidental one). I know Modjeski doesn’t "believe" in wire directionality (let alone that of fuses ;-), and I would be very surprised to learn Paravicini does.

As part of his research into the Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse, RM thoroughly measured them, including reversed in the fuse holder. He found differences, but at levels so low that he said the turbulence from a butterfly passing the measuring equipment would produce an equal difference (i.e. at 120-140dB down). Difference in sound? No.

Roger has an extremely transparent system: a direct-drive ESL loudspeaker of his own design and build, with dedicated OTL amplifiers. He winds his own world-class transformers (available in his amps for an additional $1,000), but an ESL loudspeaker with no input transformer, it’s drivers (the plates? The stators? The anodes? I don’t know, I’m no engineer) connected directly to the dedicated power amp’s tubes---no output transformers, is about as transparent as is currently possible.

Tim deParavicini has long history of superior design in both consumer and professional electronics. He designed and built the guts of the tube tape recorder Kav Alexander uses to make his amazing Water Lily recordings, amongst the finest I’ve ever heard. He is also involved in Roger Gilmour’s recording studio, modifying the electronics of it’s Studer and Ampex recorders. The studio is also equipped with EAR Equalizers, compressors, and microphone pre-amps. His EAR-Yoshino consumer electronics are fantastic, but get little love here on Audiogon, for reasons that elude me.

Chalice Audio 'Grail' monoblocks....150lbs each
The fact that there is any difference in resistance is simply evidence that the fuse wire is not symmetrical. nobody ever claimed that its resistance alone that makes fuses or wire or cables directional. RM is Captain Ahab and fuses are his Moby Dick. I have oft opined that amplifier designers are the last to hop on board the directionality train. Too hyper circuit-focused, one assumes. Too proud, too, maybe.