audiomaze
We all know and can't dispute that SR and other uber expensive cables
can do magic with your systems however most of us aspiring audiophiles
simply can't afford them
... Actually, not everyone does know this and there is substantial dispute over your claim. Of course, most of those who raise such objections do so based on theory and prejudice, and not on any first-hand experience with the cable. |
I happen to know how to make a reference IC for close to nuthin if you dear to diy
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I can DIY if you would be so kind to send any info.
Thanks
To clear: that is just what I am asking from "experience ". Some unbiased audiophiles can give an honest answer based on years of experience. |
We all know and can't dispute that SR and other uber expensive cables can do magic with your systems however most of us aspiring audiophiles simply can't afford them ...
IMHO, a lot of the "magic" vs snake oil discussions are system dependent. When I started , I was very cynical of costly speaker cables. Then I heard the difference they made in a mid tier system. To me, cabling is very important. Cost justified ?, that's a slippery slope. One of the biggest cable discussions revolves around premium ether net cables ( its just "bits" ,etc. ) My new streaming system was installed with a basic ethernet cable. Selling dealer said I did not need more. I had a used mid tier SR ethernet cable ( $350.) sent out on trial. ( just curious) Guess what --it never went back. The difference was very obvious. I believe in good cables especially with good electronics. You don't have to go to top of the line stuff. Buy used, for sure. Experiment, no magic bullet and each system will sound different with different cables Just like speakers--you want to find the sound right for you. |
I own 2 systems. The second one consists of mostly dirt-cheap components (for instance, $59, 158..). I took lots of pain assembling the much more expensive first one, especially matching cables to each component, and it sounds divine. What I'd learned from the experience, I applied to the 2nd one. Quite surprisingly, it worked wonders. On some recordings, I like it better even. So I believe even the cheap electronics will benefit from well-matching cables. Please note that I didn’t say expensive, but well-matching. |
Yeah, I am (in theory) an EE, but I have to say that it ALL seems to matter. Some to a greater degree than others. Just replaced my power conditioner and was shocked at how good it sounded.
Cables? Yep. You can go quite crazy on them. I have found that Tridoe Wire Labs cables are a great blend of price/performance. I use them for all my interconnects and most power. But I have also demoed Shunyata and Transparent, the latter never left.
And ethernet??? It just shouldn't matter. Just no. But it does. |
Audio Envy cables are excellent,I recently tried their interconnects and power cords.They are way way better than their low price would have you believe.
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Blue Jeans cables make some extremely nice interconnects as well as spkr cables.
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Take a look at AntiCables. I think they have an entry level IC around $125. I’ve had good results with them.
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We all know and can't dispute that SR and other uber expensive cables can do magic with your systems however most of us aspiring audiophiles simply can't afford them.
Ted Denney is a victim of his own success. Thirty plus years building the worlds greatest wires and all it seems to have gotten him, well aside from a pretty darn nice lifestyle, is an undeserved rep for making astronomically expensive wire.
When the truth is SR is the value leader. You answered your own question: find the $100 SR!
I started out in the 90's comparing all kinds of wire. Cardas, Wireworld, Audioquest, whole bunch of them. All across the price ranges. Been doing so off and on ever since. Started with a whole bunch of SR Looking Glass. Then Resolution Reference. CTS. Now Atmosphere. The hardest part about it is in your price range people tend not to think its even worth selling, on account of shipping becomes such a big part of the transaction. Or the selection would be huge. Because they sure sold a ton of it.
So basically SR makes it really simple: but the newest generation you can afford. No one else has such a long history of consistency across models and years but you can sure do this with SR. Interconnect, speaker cable, power cord, does not matter, same thing.
One thing, Active Shielding. Such a significant improvement that for years all their best used Active Shielding. A lot of guys don't want the extra cables and outlets. But its a great opportunity if you can find some, because unlike all other cables these can be hugely upgraded by replacing the diodes and caps and cheap circuit board in the AS power supply, either yourself or having Michael Spallone do it.
Speaking of DIY, when it comes to cables, don't waste your time. Sorry to offend those who think otherwise, they are what we un-PC types call "wrong". Been there, done that, wasted time and money, and heard lots who wasted even more. Whatever some DIYer wants you to spend on parts, spend it on any cable- not even SR, just any throw a dart at it cable- it will trounce the DIY. And the SR even more so. |
audiomaze OP51 posts12-12-2019 7:39pm"I can DIY if you would be so kind to send any info.
Thanks
To clear: that is just what I am asking from "experience ". Some unbiased audiophiles can give an honest answer based on years of experience."
Is there any way to send pm`s here? My ic`s are made from two lenghts of coaxes and are a bit tricky to make up but I`ve saved a series of pictures that shows how to land it on the legs. |
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DIY cables always look good on paper. I even got sucked into it for a while myself. One audio bud devoted decades- not years, decades- building every idea and material, tearing down and copying, reverse-engineering, you name it. After all that his finest most proud achievement was blown away by some random old SR cable pulled from my used cable drawer and costing less when new than he paid just in parts to build his masterpiece. Not just my opinion either, he heard it himself. And was crushed. Not disappointed. Crushed.
There’s a lot of things in audio very much open to question. This ain’t one of em. |
You are wrong there Steve. My simple diy ic`s are cheap but I can guarantee that you`ll never find anything better, they are perfectly clean. Only loss will be in the connections.
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I do not have a super expensive reference audio system, or golden ears, and I cannot argue which cable is objectively “best” but this i can say....on the advice of others, i went with Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects and I am very pleased all the way around.
They have a very low capacitance rating (greatly desirable esp. for turntables), robust shielding and heavy duty connectors. A basic 2’ pair is around $32 but you can get any length you like.
The sound is a huge upgrade over my previous RCAs and I think their products are a tremendous value. As the old saying goes, they’re “all balls, and no bullshit”. For its price, I’m not sure you can do better unless you DIY |
Technical
I have all bluejean cables but I was curious about others. |
emtrey
When I started , I was very cynical of costly speaker cables. Then I heard the difference they made in a system. I started with Dick Smith's finest speaker cable, around $4.50/m (similar to Radio Shack?) The difference was significant. And have been updating ever since. I went to Merlin Chopin interconnects to tone down a bright Plinius pre/power amp. Didn't realise part of the problem was the QED Silver Anniversary speaker cables I was using. Then progressed up to Merlin Verdi, and Merlin Vivaldi. Now on Mad Scientist Nitro Nano power cables, and Audience AU24SX interconnects. Most probably my last. Can't replace the in-wall Merlin Scorpion speaker cables. |
Several companies can assemble what you need:
Speaker cable = Canare 4S11
Interconnects = Mogami 2534
The music you are listening to was likely recorded utilizing one of the above in the recording studio.
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My simple diy ic`s are cheap but I can guarantee that you`ll never find anything better If true then why aren’t you selling them for $10k per meter, instead of being a nobody nobody ever heard of before? I mean seriously, "never better" if even merely better than all but the best three you’d be an inter web sensation. Even if merely better than anything under $1k, wouldn’t be true but at least someone might think maybe might be at least halfway plausible. Now if instead of blowing smoke you want to stoke up your credibility you might try something no one could argue with. Something like, "For only a couple hundred dollars worth of soldering iron and solder and flux and a couple hundred dollars more of RCAs and wire and shrink wrap my DIY design will let you build in only a day or so an interconnect so good you could spend $50 and only be twice as good." If true this would actually be an achievement. One of the most experienced cable DIYers here, Erik, sometimes manages to build a pair that are only off by about 2 dB R to L. Yeah. DIY is that good. I guarantee it. |
millercarbon, the fact is that you have convinced yourself that all home brewed cables are failures based on one persons botched attempts. Your message to all DIYers is you are doing them a favor telling them to give up before they have started and just accept your message of ultimate failure. Every company that makes cables originally started with one person coming up with the idea and developing the project.
As for beating the SR drum, go to their classified pages here on A’gon and you will see 100’s of ads by their dealers, no need to plug their rather astronomically priced (recognizing they are not alone in their pricing) Nano quantum products.
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I have been looking for that special cable for my reasonably pricey setup. Trying out and owning some of these cables from known and respected brands which was not cheap, did some improvements but also had some drawbacks. What hit the spot for me was something that I never expected and that was using Michael Green’s Picasso and Bare Essence cables. Sometimes less is more :) |
Ok
millercarbon, I was a bit too humbler there. You will never find anything as good as my diy ic`s are moore correct. Remember, I haven`t invented them, just "found" them years ago.
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@unfairlane - just to clarify my post... RE: You are wrong there Steve. My simple diy ic`s are cheap I was actually referring to my DIY cables being a bit pricey, not all DIY cables :-) As for... but I can guarantee that you`ll never find anything better Yep - I make the same claim about my cables :-) What I have observed... - There are some great DIY options out there. - DIY can compete with established products from NAME BRANDS. - The adventurous among us will try them - The sceptics among us will ridicule them - I accept DIY may not be for everyone - But cables do improve sound quality Go in peace everyone - happy holidays Regards - Steve |
The least expensive Kimber you can afford should do well I would say. |
Blue Jeans Cable out of Seattle. Nice. Inexpensive |
Another vote for Blue Jeans Cable.
I used to DIY with Belden stock, but quit when I found Blue Jeans.
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Some unbiased audiophiles can give an honest answer Ain't no such thing. EVERY audiophile who references their cable in their system in their room in their degree of intoxication has a validity factor of 1 / (number of audiophiles) or so close to zero as to be inconsequential. Cables interact with other components. Whether they are chalk or cheese depends on the rest of the system and the room biased by personal proclivities. |
I agree with several posters here on many of the basics. I do believe that a cable’s net effect will be system dependent. Maybe it’s a given, but first and foremost, your system has to have the resolution to reveal subtle details and differences.
Or say your system has a certain brightness to it (maybe you’re aware of it or maybe not, maybe you like that brightness or maybe you don’t) the cables impact on the sound may be a positive one or not, but not necessarily because it’s a bad cable. It’s just a bad fit with your particular set-up.
And just because you had an eargasm with your new interconnects, not everyone else will have a similar response.
A hard lesson ($) for me has been learning that reading about a particular component or tweak and then hearing it, at home in my system, are two really different things. We can't help but be affected sometimes by the enthusiasm of our compatriots. Also in that vein, and I think this is important, sometimes a change will just sound different. Not necessarily better, but different and only time and careful listening will reveal if something is really better.
I bought an entry level DAC some years back because I wanted to find out for myself if they really made such a huge difference and whether I should I be exploring that option. One thing I learned was that the sound was slightly different using the player’s DAC vs the outboard DAC, but not necessarily always better. Outboard DAC = bigger soundstage; disc player = better bass. Wasn’t really counting on that result, because I anticipated that the DAC would be waaaay better. But I’m always learning something in this hobby. That’s part of what makes it fun.
A lesson for me on cables came when some time ago my system developed a persistent noise and in the course of trying to isolate the cause I tried swapping out cables. Well the cable wasn’t the problem, but the noise changed with each cable I tried. Even more surprising, the most quiet of all was a pair of RCAs that were originally part of the home theater set-up I inherited with the house. They were obviously made by the installation tech on site because there were no markings on them at all and were of slightly unequal length. Never really tested them for sound quality, but very clearly quieter than my AQ, Morrow and Kimber ICs. Wasn’t really expecting that either.
Finally, I was definitely a cable skeptic for a long time. Cheap cables, bad? Yeah sure. Name brand cables better? Probably. Alter the character of your system? Wake up your speakers? Reveal some new musical truth? I sure didn’t think so. Pay hundreds of $$$ for an IC or PC? No way Jose.
Well, I’m definitely in the other camp now, even though I have never spent more than a couple of hundred bucks on a cable. I have come to appreciate the positive difference good cables can make. But I had to arrive at that place on my own, over time. Everything DOES matter and that includes the wires.
My suggestion here Audiomaze, is to start slow and experiment with just one; either ICs or PCs or speaker wire. Don’t really know what your system is like, but if you’re like most folks here and have thousands of dollars invested in carefully selected equipment, you will definitely hear the impact of a $100-$250 cable in your set-up over more generic cables. Pricier gear will reveal more, with better ($$) cables. I have heard the number of 10% to 15% bandied about. That might be a useful guideline for you. $1000 amp? Start with an IC at $100/$150. $3000 amp? Try a $300 cable and go from there depending on what you hear.
Everyone here will have their favorites. I favor the journey of discovery for what it reveals about your system and for what you learn along the way.
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ieales523 posts12-14-2019 2:01amSome unbiased audiophiles can give an honest answer Ain't no such thing.
EVERY audiophile who references their cable in their system in their room in their degree of intoxication has a validity factor of 1 / (number of audiophiles) or so close to zero as to be inconsequential.
Cables interact with other components. Whether they are chalk or cheese depends on the rest of the system and the room biased by personal proclivities.
-------------- Not true. I`ve been in this discussion before and it can off course not be solved over the net. But I invited some "septics" to my home and wow no moore discussion. Why? Because my system is totally open, clean & clear, as beeing there and everyone (moore or less) can hear any difference, though not everyone knows how to evaluate them. That takes moore skills. I am a golden ear but not so much without my system. Very few has a tool like I have, but they are still trying to evaluate stuff in their moore cloudy systems. That`s like evaluating diamonds in the basement with sunglasses on, it`s worth nothing. This is why I recommend to take the object they plant to buy and bring it to a seasoned audiophiles system, compare it to his moore ekspensive equipment and by that get some enlightening. I did this when I was a beginner, it saved me a lot of trouble. |
Zu Audio sells some of their cables on eBay. They are just fine and you may get them for (relatively) cheap. $100-200 is frequently a norm.
Then borrow someone’s expensive cables and compare to make your own opinion.
For whatever it is worth, Hosa XLR cables (about $15 per pair) and Shunyata Venom XLR cables (around $300-350, if I remember correctly) sound just the same. Shunyata looks better, though.
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Thank you all for the input.sure got alot of advice.
Merry Christmas
Audiomaze |
millercarbon, the fact is that you have convinced yourself that all home brewed cables are failures based on one persons botched attempts. Your message to all DIYers is you are doing them a favor telling them to give up before they have started and just accept your message of ultimate failure. Every company that makes cables originally started with one person coming up with the idea and developing the project. Well, no. Every time I tell that story its made perfectly clear this was anything but a one-off botched attempt, as you put it. The guy spent, sorry but since you missed it earlier I'm gonna shout, DECADES building COUNTLESS cables in his basement lab. This was his best, his One Cable, his Precious. The best he ever did. But his whole system was chock full of DIY cables. Only time music actually gave me a headache, his system with the DIY cables everywhere. Oh and also, I tried a few myself. Dismal failures all. Pathetic. When I score I score, and this, wasn't even a rim shot. I have yet to hear the DIY cable no matter how great come anywhere even close to cheap pro wire. These stories are not made up by the way. They're years in experience in the making. The exact opposite of blowing smoke, you know, like "every company originally started..." Have you met even ONE of these guys? Which one? Wait, I got a better one: how is this even slightly controversial? Just assume, for the sake of argument, it really is possible to assemble some off the shelf parts and get truly outstanding performance. Your DIY cable, (sorry, laughing, hard to type) so secret you found it on the interweb (right?) anyone can do it, and its so awesomely better than anything else, and for cheap, and yet there's all these guys making obscene profits too dumb to figure out they can make even more building your DIY, slapping a fancy sticker with a name on it? There's a ton of em Would they not be doing this? So where are they? Oh and also at the same time the pro's would be testing and tweaking and finding trick ways to take all those same parts up a whole level, just so they can sell for even more. Leaving your regular old DIY in the dust. Its one, or its the other. Notice nowhere in there is the scenario where the DIY really is good. Because they never are. Sorry. You got to at least pick a semi-defensible position to have any chance at all here. And this ain't it. As for beating the SR drum, go to their classified pages here on A’gon and you will see 100’s of ads by their dealers, no need to plug their rather astronomically priced (recognizing they are not alone in their pricing) Nano quantum products.
Uh oh. What Freudian's call a slip. |
In the overall scheme of things people would generally be much better off if they paid more attention to system engineering aspects of cables. Respect the directionality of wire. Elevate or suspend all cables and power cords. Clean and treat all electrical connections. If your cables aren’t cryo’d at the factory send them off to the cryo lab ASAP. If you are using vibration isolation make sure cables and power cords don’t pull on the set up as that will mess up the isolation effectiveness.
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millercarbon, I do understand from your repeated posts that you and a buddy ended up being disappointed with the cables you made. But somehow you seem to be thinking that I have a reason to believe that either you or your buddy have the talent to source good wire and the ability to assemble the cables, after you admit you did not.
Member grannyring started making DIY cables using Dueland wire and now sells them on A’gon under the "Acoustic BBQ" brand name. You can see for yourself his cable’s overwhelmingly positive reviews by many audiophiles.
It was wrong of me to highlight that you echo your love for SR cables, you are among many here that repeadely trumpet their preference for a particular brand.
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Merry Christmas Audiomaze! |
Why when I run into audiophiles with claimed golden ears and Uber resolving systems that more often than not, their room acoustics are far less than top notch?
If you don't have the room acoustics top notch, just what are you resolving?
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audiozenology... when I run into audiophiles with claimed golden ears ... I've never met an audiophile who claimed to have "golden ears" or superior hearing. Indeed, the audiophiles I know think that just about anyone could hear what they hear, provided they're willing to listen.
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In this thread alone there are many who claim to have superior hearing if not directly in this thread than others. It is a very common rephrain and insult. You have been here a while so I can't see your post as anything but disingenuous. |
Audiozenology, why should you take offense if some have better hearing. Do you take offense at people who have better sight? Sounds like you have an ego problem. Hopefully not. :(
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audiozenologyIn this thread alone there are many who claim to have superior hearing ... Of course you provide no example. Your "golden ear" is just a strawman argument.
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. That takes moore skills. I am a golden ear but not so much without my system.
Right. So here's what happens, or at least can happen, or at least is what I have actually seen happen. Person starts out not even able to hear something as obvious as the difference between a budget and really good CD player |
If true this would actually be an achievement. One of the most experienced cable DIYers here, Erik, sometimes manages to build a pair that are only off by about 2 dB R to L. Yeah. DIY is that good. I guarantee it. Short of a poorly made turntable cable no cable, cheap, diy or other mismatches this much side to side or cable to cable anywhere the audio band. This appears to be a made up or misquoted number. Why do people post such obviously erroneous hyperbole? |
audiozenology
Why do people post such obviously erroneous hyperbole?
>>>>I don’t know. Why can’t people only quote facts?
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@millercarbon - re:... Wait, I got a better one: how is this even slightly controversial? Just assume, for the sake of argument, it really is possible to assemble some off the shelf parts and get truly outstanding performance. Your DIY cable, (sorry, laughing, hard to type) so secret you found it on the interweb (right?) anyone can do it, and its so awesomely better than anything else, and for cheap, and yet there’s all these guys making obscene profits too dumb to figure out they can make even more building your DIY, slapping a fancy sticker with a name on it? There’s a ton of em Would they not be doing this? You "appear" to make a valid case. But let’s break it down... and yet there’s all these guys making obscene profits too dumb to figure out they can make even more building your DIY, slapping a fancy sticker with a name on it? Well - the "high performance" DIY cables that I am aware of... 1. are made from specialist (expensive) parts that I DO NOT consider "off the shelf" 2. they use very high quality wires in their construction 3. they are not easy to fabricate because they use an unconventional cable geometry 4. resulting in an expensive & time consuming build process. This makes it difficult to scale up to a cost-effective manufacturing process, which in turn makes it unprofitable, even for the smaller cable fabricators. That’s why "these guys" - Would NOT be doing this with the more advanced designs. Regarding your statement... Just assume, for the sake of argument, it really is possible to assemble some off the shelf parts and get truly outstanding performance. Like you, I have been there and found the cables I built that used conventional cable geometries (i.e. bulk cable) to be disappointing. So that part of your post I do agree with - in some part. But you do seem to be generalizing and "tarring" ALL DIY cables with the "same brush", which I have found is not the case. I do believe my DIY cables are actually competing with the very best commercially available brands for a fraction of the cost and that belief has been substantiated by the many DIY’er across the globe that have taken the time to pass on their positive observations. Just thought I would share a differing point of view, so other readers can form their own beliefs/opinions. May you ALL have an excellent holiday season - Steve :-) |
Thanks jetter
I purchased some magomi 2534 cables. I hope it is not a sideways matchup with tha LC-1 from bj but it's a start.
Thanks to all. |
It's too bad that Cabledyne went out of business. Their engineer worked for Belden Cable & Wire for 20 years and he came up with a cable that was better than what he used to design for Belden. It involved a type of shielding and had a different cable geometry and dielectric than what you'd find on a "standard" cable.
The best part was it was not an expensive cable, relatively speaking. You could get interconnects for about $150 and speaker cables that cost me about $350 for a 6' pair.
The ICs weren't as good as my Darwin ICs so I asked for a RA to return them. Puzzled by that, Ed Bowman asked why I was returning them since no one had ever done that. He asked for my take on them so I obliged him. Once they were returned, he asked if I would try out a new set of ICs and give some more feedback. I did. And the new ones came scary close to the sound of Darwin's entry level line at 1/3 the cost.
All they did was to swap out the standard terminations for some Cardas Silver brand of terminations and if I'd heard only that, I would have thought I'd hit the cable lottery. I let him know that when I returned them and for the life of me, I don't know why they didn't change to those ICs as it wouldn't have been that big a price increase. They would've had an eternal backorder to deal with.
As for their speaker cables, they smoked any pair I used before them. Zu Mission, Zu Event, Music Metre, Mapleshade Double Helix, and a few more that I can't remember. When they had a Holiday Sale on their top of the line Virtuoso Speaker Cables, I jumped on them without hesitation since they were 50% off. Never looked back. No intention of looking further.
The whole point of this is that I don't believe that one has to settle for something because someone else holds forth on the belief that what they say is good enough because, engineering. The world is full of engineers and no two will decide on what's good enough for others, let alone themselves. There are shills on both sides of this equation and somewhere, in the middle, are some great finds, depending on your budget. Like Williwonka said, some cables require a lot of work to complete and use better than average design and construction, which is reflected in the cost. One must not assume that all of that cost is some very high markup.
If I were in the market for a new set of cables, I'd look into some of the smaller, cottage industry types who don't have the market exposure and need to factor all of those ads into their pricing.
All the best,
Nonoise |
@millercarbon
" Wait, I got a better one: how is this even slightly controversial? Just assume, for the sake of argument, it really is possible to assemble some off the shelf parts and get truly outstanding performance. Your DIY cable, (sorry, laughing, hard to type) so secret you found it on the interweb (right?) anyone can do it, and its so awesomely better than anything else, and for cheap, and yet there's all these guys making obscene profits too dumb to figure out they can make even more building your DIY, slapping a fancy sticker with a name on it? There's a ton of em Would they not be doing this? So where are they? Oh and also at the same time the pro's would be testing and tweaking and finding trick ways to take all those same parts up a whole level, just so they can sell for even more. Leaving your regular old DIY in the dust.
Its one, or its the other. Notice nowhere in there is the scenario where the DIY really is good. Because they never are. Sorry. You got to at least pick a semi-defensible position to have any chance at all here. And this ain't it. "
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You`re a bit of an arrogant yerk millercarbon and I kind if like that as long as you are talented as well. Are you?
Tell me what ic`s you`re using and I`ll send you a set. |
..and yeah, they are guaranteed 100% off the shelf cheap stuff |
