Thank you very much for the detailed explanation, Millercarbon. Would you mind clarifying some of the terminology you used so I can follow what you are saying carefully. What exactly do you mean by "imaging". I’ve heard the term used many times, but never had anything but a vague or loose understanding of what it means. Also when you refer to "bass and mid-range balance" what are you meaning? I’m only guessing, but Is it the amount of one in relation to the other, or something entirely different?
As you suggest, I will be careful to keep everything absolutely symmetrical to the 1/16" inch if need be. Thanks for pointing out the need to be that exact.The current set-up when you sit in the center of the couch is an equilateral triangle with the speakers 8’ apart on center and the listener eight feet from the front of either when seated. Does this sound like a reasonable arrangement? The speakers are toed out a bit from that, so I’ll toe them in as you mentioned so they are pointed directly at the listener’s head to have a solid center image to start with, and proceed from there.
There aren’t any big flat open surfaces to contend with, unless you count the vaulted ceiling, so that shouldn’t be an issue. The floors are oak, but the area in front of the couch and speakers is covered with a thick (Persian) rug the width of the couch.
One last question for you or anybody. How far should the sound stage extend beyond the speakers, if at all? I read somewhere on site the sound stage should not extend to the left or right of the left and right speakers unless they are wired out of phase. Is that so? The sound stage now often seems to emanate from inside the shelf area holding the components between and in back of the speakers.
Again, thank you,
Rego and geof, your posts came in while I was writing this response. I will get back to you in the morning as it is getting quite late and I have to call it quits for tonight.
Mike |
Rego I’ll try your suggestion of moving the couch out of the way and standing a bit from the wall. I can also try having no toe-in just to see what that sounds like. Interesting suggestions to start to get a feel for the sound. Moving the speakers closer together to seven feet apart would be great and an aesthetic gain as well for the room decor, especially as opposed to moving them out to nine feet apart which I was hoping not to have to do.
Could you clarify what the word "Baffles" means. Is this another word for speakers or some part of of them. And what do you mean by "decouple the speakers"? The room decor does take precedence and acoustic treatment will not be in play. I’m not thinking there will be any need for any anyway. Thank you for your suggestions.
In response to your second post, should I be measuring the distance from the wall from the front of the speaker, rather than the rear as assumed distance from the wall meant? That would be a much more favorable measurement to go by.
Geof, the vocals are usually dead center with occasional variation depending on the recordings. I’ll try the chair on wheel out when the couch is pushed out of the was as rego suggested with the desk chair im sitting on rirgt now as I type this reply to you.
Miijostyn, thanks for your explanation of imaging. Here’s something I don’t understand about it and why I’m inquiring if the sound stage should extend beyond the current eight feet between the speakers. If you were listening to a live band or orchestra there would be well more than eight feet between the musicians on either end of the stage. That would seem impossible to recreate except in miniature in you living room. Also most studio recordings are done with the musicians separated or partitioned from one other, or recorded completely separately. it would seem the imaging in that case is solely the construct of the producers or sound engineers.
Geoffkait, I’ll get hold of an XLO test CD as you suggest. Is it the Sheffield one you are referring to? That name came up when I googled XLO test CD just now. Thanks for the suggestion. That should be helpful.
Pragmasi, I could try the switching wires out of phase trick you mention for an experiment. There shouldn’t be any issues with the speakers having equidistant spacing as you mention but thanks for the heads up on that score
onhwy6, I will do some experimenting with the positioning. I’m trying to get a clue about what factors should be in play, what I should be looking to accomplish, and what might be going on. I usually am self taught, but there is so much knowledge and experience here on site it would be a shame to not take advantage of what you all know.
Needfreestuff, thanks for the tip on measuring between tweeters.I wasn’t sure where to measure from. Before I purchased the Magicos, knowing I couldn’t move them out any further from the wall, I contacted one of their VP’s to discuss this issue. Part of why I chose the A3’s was they are un-ported. The VP said they could go as close to the rear wall as 7" but were best placed 20" out as you point out. One day I hope to add a separate Music Room to the house were they can be better situated to avoid the bass and mid-range issues you cited. I could move them farther out now, but I’d have to vault over them to get to the rooms on the other side of the house.
Tablejockey, yes life is filled with compromises. Maybe one day I’ll get that music room built. I still have some old papers on room acoustics from Klipsch from their "Dope from Hope" series copied fifty years ago on dealing with how to design that music room. It’s on my bucket list, just like getting an expensive stereo system was. I’ve made that one come true, so who knows.
Mahgister, sounds like you should come over and set my system up. I’ve a big Federal style library table to deal with in the listening room, just like the desk you ’ve had to deal with. And with room treatments out of the question. for aesthetic reasons I’ve that to deal with also.
Sgordon. thanks for the practical advice and warning about no cheating. It makes sense to use familiar recordings too. I’ll do that.
Thank you all for so many well thought out and helpful responses. I’m looking forward to utilizing your ideas as best as possible.
Mike
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Geoffkait, thanks for the clarification on the XLO versus the Sheffield test CD and the link you provided. Is yours literally made of gold like the one in the link says it is. What next?
Millercarbon, thank you again for your detailed answers to my questions . I’ve a better understanding now of what imaging is. And I’ll break out the framing square and tape measure to get those measurements correct. I’ve some machinist calipers that could easily get those measurement exact to the thousandth of an inch, so carpentry type measurement tolerances are easy pickings.
So, if ii read you right, you feel a sound stage where the instrumentalists and vocalists appear to be located outside of the speakers, but between then, would be an acceptable outcome, and not a thing to worry about? I thought something might be wrong if they did not appear to be spread out more across the front of the room as they would be in a live performance setting.
This is kind of new to me so I probably am focusing on something regarding sound stage that doesn’t really matter, like you said. I am trying by this thread to sort out what does matter and what I should be paying attention to and trying to achieve. Thanks for your help in that regard and taking the time to offer explanations.
Mike
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Ncdogdoc, thanks for the link, that’s about $30 less for the XLO test disc.
Cheeg, how due you get the sound stage to extend outwards without being out of phase?
Rego, thanks for your clarifications and the link to the Townsend video on decoupling. That was interesting. For a second beforehand I thought you were referring to a Pete Townsend video and wanting me to smash my speakers with a guitar to decouple them.
Rbstehno, the position of the doorways and the built-in cabinets below the bookshelves on the short walls precludes putting the speakers on the short wall. Also the flat screen TV is located above the stereo component shelves between the speakers on the long wall, and the couch needs to face that direction. On the short walls the TV would cover the built in book shelves if placed there. Other than that no problem. Your arrangement that way probably sounds quite good I'd imagine in a similar sized room. It's unfortunately just not possible here without some drastic remodeling.
Mike |
Geoffkait, $19.99 for the XLO Test CD is even better yet. Thanks.
Richopp and winnardt, your implication there are better and more accurate speakers than my Magico A3's is dastardly indeed.
Big_greg, since it was reported yesterday Amazon's Jeff Bezos just bought the most expensive home in all of California, he surely requires our full support.
Mike
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Morningstaraudio, you're lucky to have one of those laser measuring devices I was thinking how nice it would be to have one this morning as I was trying to accurately aim the speakers so they would both point to the exact same spot on wall the behind couch.
Geoffkait. It might be a good starting point though to make adjustment from,
to follow with using the XLO to make adjustments as needed to suit the room's layout and furnishings. My listening room, designed in a Federal style, is symmetrical, which should lend itself to both approaches readily enough I would think. We'll see soon enough.
Larry, I've achieved a bit of a similar effect this morning, by more exactly measuring the toe in and trying to aim it directly at my head in the center listening location, and then next somewhat behind it, while moving the speakers closer together from eight feet on center to seven feet.. The sound on Miles Davis' "Seven Steps to Heaven" seemed better focused and maybe the bass tighter. It's too soon to tell though without a lot more listening and adjusting, not to mention using the test record Geoff has recommended.
Mijostyn, I'll try listening to some live recordings while setting things up. It's interesting how different recording engineers approaches to mixing and maybe remastering create different soundstages,
For instance listening to "Gerry Mulligan meets Ben Webster" earlier today, It was clear some instruments were located center stage in places between the speakers. But Ben Webter's tenor sax was clearly emanating from the right speaker and Gerry Mulligan's baritone sax clearly coming out of the left. Who knows how this was originally recorded and mixed sixty years ago though?
Sounds like you've had some practice setting up systems with some more sophisticated techniques than I'm likely to muster. You're welcome to come over and give it a shot.
Mike
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Glupson, I've moved the speakers today almost about as close together as they can go in this setting, 7 feet OC, and I' m pleased with the result so far. I wouldn't have guessed that would be the way to go. There must be some point of no return on moving them closer.
Also thanks for the suggestion and link on he laser measuring devices. I've every tool under the sun, but not one of those for no sensible reason.. I'd like to get the one for casting level lines in a room as well, like for hanging paintings or installing chair rails evenly etc. Consider it done.
Tomico, I did just now go ahead and watch a youtube video on use of an SPL meter, since I've never heard of one before. Interesting toys for boys (or girls for that matter, if Elizabeth happens to be reading this) you and Glupson are suggesting today. The Lieco Disto laser measure looked sweet, especially being Swiss made. That whet's my appetite. I'll search out those Vandersteen download, although having to do math beyond measuring, may give me a flashback to the horrors of high school algebra and trig classes. Thanks for the suggestions.
Geoffkait, you and Tomico both if he's suggesting math.
Mike
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Tomico60 and asvjerry, OK, I did google Fibbo sequence and came up with the Fibonnacci sequence. I’m guessing this is what you are talking about. Said something about the golden rule be an example. My golden rule is do unto others....... and leave the math to someone else. I’d get hopelessly lost doing it in forward, much less reverse. I could likely figure it out, but rather go to the dentist for another root canal.
Geoffkait, I will get that XLO test CD, check it out and report back.. My options for speaker placement are severely limited if you recall ,and there will be no room treatments. I’ll probably not be able to achieve sound coming from all over the room. The only time I’ve had that effect was quite recently with a Sonny Rollins record newly purchased. Oddly enough the piano on one track clearly was positioned on the center of a side wall, maybe eight feet out from the left speaker and a few feet behind an upholstered chair . It was a quite startling and weird effect. Can a recording or one instrument be recorded out of phase to cause that effect? That’s the only recording that’s ever done anything like that. I played it twice even it was so odd with the same result.
Elliot, The Magico A3’s are on spikes and the spikes came with small metal discs they sit on to protect the oak flooring. They do slide on the floor fairly easily and I’ve only a small distance to work with for speaker placement, but thank you for the link to the wheeled dolly/stand anyway. I could try them without the spikes or other decoupling options though, and see if that offers any improvement. I hadn’t considered doing that.
Richopp, I did audition some Magneplanars back in 1976 when I got my old Dahlquist DQ10’s. They sounded good, but were big as doors and the WAF ruled out their purchase. The much smaller, but still substantial size of the DQ10’s bought me enough grief over the years as it is.
I’m glad you’re pleased with your Maggies. They must sound great. I’ll have to content myself with the speakers I’m burdened with now, having made a mistaken speaker choice twice in a row. Due to the intentional and misleading name similarity I might have been confused thinking Magico’s were Maggies.
I will play around with the Magico A3’s positioning some as you described to wean the last bit of musicality out of them.Then thanks to your clearing up my thinking on this matter, my next speaker purchase, planned for 2060, will definitely be for Maggies. Thanks
Mike
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Insearchofprat, that sounds like a good practical way to systematically adjust my current speakers location withing the restricted location parameters I’ve got to deal with. I’m not sure all of my new components are broken in thoroughly. The Magicos require 400, maybe 450 hours to be thoroughly broken in. I’ve had them installed since last Spring but haven’t kept track of the hours. My Marantz Ruby CD player is practically fresh out of the box so tha’ts certainly not. Maybe I’ll have to go back six months from now maybe and readjust positioning if break-in time is that important a factor.
Richopp, sounds like we have some similar interests. I’m breaking ground on a woodworking shop at home soon as it warms up a bit. I’ve a garage full of vintage U.S. manufactured wood working machines acquired over the past couple of years or so, I’ll be putting out there. I designed and finished installing the built-in cabinetry for my current audio system not long ago. Audiogon and OWWM (Old Woodworking Machines) are my favorite sites online.
Vinylvalet, I’ll see if our local library is able to get a copy of the "Get Better Sound" book to look through. That’s quite interesting you were able to meet the author and listen to his system. What impressed you most about the sound you heard in his music room? And If you don’t mind providing a preview, what are some of his techniques, or general approach, that enabled him to achieve the impressive results you heard with a modest system? And thanks for the link.
Mike |
Tomico, I did find and download the Vandertones but have no idea what to do with them yet. Mostly what I am doing now is only moving the A3’s laterally from 7’ to maybe 9" apart and adjusting their toe in. There’s really no a lot of play in what I can do now. If I ever get a music room addition added to the house after I get the shop built I’ll have an opportunity to do more in terms of placement and acoustics. Then the more advanced theoretical aspects you all have been introducing me to will come into play, maybe even in the room design and planning stage. I’ll take a look on the ABE used books site and see if they have good condition copy of the Jim Smith book. I wonder if there’s a hardcover edition available?
Millercarbon, the Harley book sounds interesting too. I’ll track one of them down too. I’d like to learn more about room dimensions so I don’t make a mistake in the planning stage drawing up the blueprints of a music room addition. Tentatively I always planned that room to mimic the size of the two car garage on the opposite side of the house in order to maintain the home’s symmetry. That would make the music room 24’ wide by 30’ long with 10’ flat ceiling, no cathedral type structure to it. Maybe those Fibonacci equations would give some guidance of how this might work out acoustically. But I’m getting way ahead of myself. Right now getting the Magico’s spacing and toe-in correctly done is the focus.
Actually, just playing around with the toe in and reducing the distance between the speakers seems to be having a salutary effect. I played Emmylou Harris’ "Wrecking Ball album again", because it’s a more recently recorded and well produced CD. It sounded really beautiful with just those slight adjustments, and I don’t even usually care much for country music.
Kacomes, this has been an interesting discussion. There are some really knowledgeable folk here you can really learn a lot from when they share what they’ve learned about audio. You have to appreciate their input even when it starts going over your head. There’s a lot to be learned.
Mike
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Tomic601, I have had some luck adjusting the speakers positioning, even though it’s a pretty limited amount I can move them around to make adjustments.
I’ve had to put off purchasing any books or anything else for that matter outside of groceries until the first of the month. Since you mentioned a woodworking machine, I’ll mention I found a rare, but definitely overpriced, part that I’ve been looking for for the last two years for a vintage Delta belt/disk combination sander . I had to get it while it was available. That and some other unnecessary spending at the outset of the month (on a painting) forced me to step on the financial brakes for a minute. Thanks for explaining what Vandertones are, and good analogy on the table saw runout. Judging from that and some other things you’ve mentioned here and there, you’re undoubtedly a well rounded individual. Thanks again,
Mike |
