Adding sub question

I am looking at adding a pair of Rythmik F25 subs, this would be a 2.2 system only no HT, I wish to split low end to the subs and keep the full range signal from my main speakers, I was thing about possibly a Marantz AV 7005, or Parasound 2100, current equipment is:
ARC D130 amp
Classe CP-35 pre
Tyler Acoustic Linbrook Sig(1 piece)

any input appreciated
Big difference. The Marantz is a full-blown MC processor which includes Audyssey EQ. Perhaps overkill for you.

The Parasound is more appropriate. You can put a pair of "Y"connectors at the output of the Classe, sending both channels to the ARC and the other pair of channels to the Parasound for its crossover. However, you do not get any EQ for the subs this way.

Let me suggest another alternative: Use the "Y" connectors as above but get an DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core digital room equalizer ($1099) which will give you both a crossover and a good EQ for the subs.
I thought about the y connector but my Classe has both balanced and single ended outputs, I am currently using balanced to the ARC, I was going to hook the single ended outputs to the sub inputs, but was hesitant about doing this as my main speakers would still be getting a full range signal. Would this still be ok to have the full range go to mains and set the low pass on sub at say 80 hertz or so? I love the Classe and hate to get rid of it as it sounds awesome with the ARC(and is a solid 8/10 condition)would it get too `busy` in the low end doing it this way? Reason for wanting to add a pair of subs is I kind of like alot of low end, and I have to push the Tylers a little to get them to go deep like the are able to do.
I am sorry that I misread your original where you said that you wanted to "keep the full range signal from my main speakers." I read "to my main speakers."

So, the use of a dedicated sub crossover would be what you want and the P2100 would do that, albeit without the valuable EQ.

There used to be good dedicated sub crossovers on the market but they have disappeared. If you can find an NHT somewhere, they were great and cheap enough to let you add an AntiMode 8033 for EQ. I also recommend adding the 8033 to the P2100, if you can.
I've used an NHT x-2 in the manner that Kal suggests with an Veolynse SMS-1 for sub EQ and integration. The good news is that both x-2 and SMS-1 are reasonably priced (if you can find an x-2) and work very, very well, but ....

This is a giant PITA to set up properly and a bit of a kludge on power-up. I eventually switched to an Audyssey enabled prepro and am very happy with the results. I understand the desire to hang on to a nice piece like your Classe preamp, but I replaced an ARC pre and a Joule pre with an Onkyo prepro and have never looked back.

FWIW the anti-mode that Kal suggests will likely ease the set-up issues presented by the SMS-1, but at IIRC twice the price.

Good luck

After looking at your system, I wonder if you are getting all the bass the Tyler’s are capable of producing. Please keep in mind, I think you have a nice system, and just asking questions about synergy.

My experience with Blue Heaven speaker cable was that the bass was lean, just not as deep or rich as with other cables. While some disagree, many others have experienced the lean bass with Blue Heaven.

I have no experience with the D130, but doing a little research, found some reviews and people in forums saying that it was excellent in the midrange and treble, but lacking authority in the bass, and probably should be used with smaller, less demanding speakers.

So my question is, have you ever tried, or considered trying a different amp or speaker cables?
Just an experiment you might want to do... replace your Classe preamp with a Marantz AV7005, hook up the pair of subs, run Audyssey and determine if you've lost anything in the process.

My experience doing this was with a Bryston BP-26 preamp and 7B SST amps. Once you get past the notion that you've sold your audiophile soul, you may be pleasantly surprised, as I was, and never look at analog preamps the same way again.

Rather than adding more boxes to your audio rack, the AV7005 gives you more functionality and simplifies your system. The AV7005 has two balanced SUB outputs, which is nice, but its Audyssey doesn't treat them separately.

BTW, HSU sells a sub crossover (high & low pass filters): It doesn't support balanced connections though.
Thanks for all the input after talking with the higher up in the household(wife). I am going to try taking the Nordost cables out of the equation first and see if that helps, I too remember reading about the Blue Heaven cables being a little lean, I purchased those cables from the same guy I purchased my Vandersteen 2ce sigs from a while back. As I have also read the same about the ARC D130 as far as bass goes. Any inputs on cables or amps? The one thing I know for sure is the Tylers are staying put.
I continue to be surprised that people with issues of bass response (or other major sonic matters) look at their components through the other end of the telescope. The components that most affect sound are the room and the speakers (and their relationship). Cables? Merely the crust of the icing.
I emphatically second Kal's (KR4's) comment just above. Cables are not the answer. However, in this specific case I think that the following comment may be particularly applicable, although for different reasons than were speculated:
05-26-13: Tls49
After looking at your system, I wonder if you are getting all the bass the Tyler’s are capable of producing. Please keep in mind, I think you have a nice system, and just asking questions about synergy.
Specifically, I see here that your Jolida JD100a CD player has its rated output voltage specified on the basis of a 100K load. While the input impedance of the unbalanced inputs of your Classe CP-35 is indicated in the manual as being 33K.

The CD player evidently has a tube-based output stage, which presumably includes an output coupling capacitor. The reference to 100K loading strongly suggests that the value of that capacitor is such that there is a substantial rise in output impedance at deep bass frequencies. That will result in a significant deep bass rolloff if the input impedance of the preamp is not high enough. Given the relatively low input impedance of the CP-35, I suspect that effect is at least a significant contributor to the problem, if not entirely responsible.

I would suggest that before making any decisions about how to proceed you first try to borrow or obtain a different CD player, preferably one having a solid state output stage (and therefore presumably a much lower output impedance), and see what kind of deep bass response it provides in your system.

-- Al
Is there a system like Audessey Pro what is capable of adapthing 2 sub's togheter in stereo mode? I also use Audessey Pro. Cause of Audyssey pro I have a full stealth integration of my PLW-15 subwoofer of Monitor Audio. Next goal is a system and timing as Audyssey pro but with 2 separated sub's for right and left in stereo mode.
Kr4, I agree that the room is an important factor affecting a systems overall response, but did not get the impression that the bass was a major problem due to his comment,
I have to push the Tylers a little to get them to go deep like the are able to do.
My comments were merely to get him thinking about his system and the synergy, rather than just throwing subwoofers at it.

I also agree that cables do not solve major issues, but in some cases make a significant difference. I think this difference is probably due to the overall balance being tilted up or down. My experience with Blue Heaven was years ago, and also compared with FlatLine, SPM, and other brands. With Nordost, the Blue Heaven was the only one that sounded somewhat lean or tilted up.

Al, I always enjoy reading your comments, and agree with your suggestion to try a different CD player. I have also found that the Jolida’s manual states the output impedance is 47K, not 100K as shown on the website. Is this still too high? And what’s wrong with trying a different amp, just to rule out the rumors about the D130? I know of many cases where an amp change resulted in better bass.

What about dedicated lines for the system, if he doesn’t have them?

Again, I just think with a little effort, bass can be improved on the Tylers. Whether it is enough or not, only he will know.
Bo1972 asked: "Is there a system like Audessey Pro what is capable of adapthing 2 sub's togheter in stereo mode?"
I am not sure you mean "together" because Audyssey (in any flavor) will EQ the subs together. AFAIK, only the stand-alone Audyssey Subwoofer Equalizer offers the ability to EQ 2 separate stereo subs. So, will Trinnov and so will DSpeaker 2.0.
Good catch Al. Pretty obvious there's an impedance matching problem.
Here is how I got to where I am today, when I first purchased the Tylers I was running them with a Rotel RSX 1065(don`t laugh!), and an off the shelf Sony blue ray player, with the Nordost cables, was very harsh at the top end on while `pushing` the Tyler to get the low end. Then along came the ARC D130, I was still using the Rotels` pre out driving the ARC got better in the low end but still a little too harsh on top end while trying to obtain the low end I wanted, then I found a deal on the Classe, seemed a little better, but still harsh and shallow on low end. Last weekend I hooked up the Sony along side of the Jolida, playing the same tune it ironically sounded near the same, just the Jolida was a little better in midrange, go figure a $100 blue ray player versus the Jolida, not much difference. Strange maybe cables not the source, but still could be amp related.
Tls, thanks very much. I always enjoy reading your posts as well, which have struck me as knowledgeable, helpful, and well intended.

As you probably realize, the 47K figure you found in the manual would be a recommended load impedance, rather than an output impedance (or an input impedance, since the JD100a has no inputs), although it may have been described as an output impedance due to loose translation or whatever.

In any event, both the 47K and 100K figures are significantly higher than the 33K input impedance of the Classe preamp. So as Bob said just above it seems pretty clear that a significant impedance incompatibility is present, which is most likely a significant contributor to the problem.

Pkrbkr999, just saw your last post. I would keep in mind the possibility that multiple problems may be present, with the effects of the impedance incompatibility being masked by a different problem.

Also, while I'm not certain what you mean by having to "push" the Tylers to get the low end, keep in mind that the sensitivity of our hearing mechanisms to deep bass frequencies, relative to their sensitivity to mid-range frequencies, decreases as volume levels are decreased. The Fletcher-Munson Effect.
05-27-13: Tls49
My comments were merely to get him thinking about his system and the synergy, rather than just throwing subwoofers at it.
Excellent point, well said.

Best regards,
-- Al
Re: the harshness... Maybe you simply don't like the tweeter in your speakers at high levels. By "pushing" the Tylers, I assume you mean turning up the volume. That would be necessary if you're sitting at a room null or if the bass is prematurely rolled off.

The surest way to determine your problem is to get your ears out of the picture and use an SPL meter to measure the response of your system from 20 - 200 Hz (using the bass test tones from RealTraps). Do this with the Sony and the Jolida.

The room modes will show up in the graph with the Sony player. The impedance mismatch between the Jolida and Classe will show up in the graph with the Jolida as the peaks being lower in level.

It's highly unlikely that there are any issues between the Classe solid state preamp and the ARC solid state amp. Both will measure flat separately and combined. Looking at solid state electronics is not going to solve the impedance mismatch or room issues.
What I mean is that both sub's will have there own separated channel. Right and left for stereo use. That is the only way I would go for 2 sub's. All the demo's I heard with 2 Velodyne sub's were quite worse. First they are slow has a turtle and second instruments and voices become too big in proportion. I can now use my sub from 16hz till 140 hz with ease. Without Audyssey Pro I never heard a sub integrate that good as it should be. Still I would love to have an acoustic system for 2 separated sub's for stereo use.
AFAIK, AudysseyPro, used with a AVR or prepro, will not accommodate stereo (separate) subwoofer EQ. (It will set individual delays and levels for two subs.)

What hardware are you using it with?
Al, and thank you very much. Sorry if I wasn’t technically correct stating what I found in CD player manual, but it is listed the same way as the website,
Line Output Voltage: >2V, 47 Kohms. Who knows what is correct, but you have confirmed that either is too high.

Pkrbkr999, you mention the fact that the top end is harsh. Some do have excellent results with Nordost, and love them. Again, from my experience with Nordost speaker cables and interconnects, I thought the top end was always a little rough, and I was able to achieve a much smoother top end with other brands. Please understand I am not saying cables are a solution to your problem, but that they may just be a piece of the puzzle.
140 Hz is fairly high for a crossover point to subs. Bass is going to be directional to some degree at that point, which will make integrating the subs more difficult. Might want to get something that can handle time alignment at this crossover point, depending on the locations of the subs.
140 hz is possible because the PLW-15 has one of the fastest responses in subwoofers these days. You cannot point out my sub. At 80 hz low freq. start to be touchable. By using it to 140 hz the overwhole sound improves a lot. I owned the Valhalla for over 12 years and sols a lot of them. Nordost is a brand you need to use very precise. The problem is that it is not complete. You Always need different brands to get all the essential parts what should be there for the absolute sound.
thanks for all the input, I am leaning towards starting with cables and also using the Sony to see if those 2 combined would help. BTW I when I stated `push` the Tylers I did mean turn volume up to get the low end louder, but like I stated top end got real harsh, I have tried moving speaker in from side walls and out from rear walls, helped some also. Will keep all posted after cable and source are done. Would an Audysee unit do room correction?
I don't understand the posts of Bo1972. What does fast mean in terms of a sub aimed at reproducing LF? Why stereo for subs rather than mode smoothing, given the pyschoacoustic literature on LF localization?

If I were OP, I'd pay attention to Al, and order an Oppo 105 that can be returned if it doesn't solve the problem. It should settle the impedance mismatch issue.

I think I found the answer!!! Went to a local dealer in WI speaking to him of my issues, he sent/loaned me a pair of Analysis oval speaker wires, they are their demos so the are broken in, a voila! 80% harshness gone. Way more pronounced on the low end, just may be the ticket! BTW these we not a biwire pair, What are your thoughts on putting jumpers in and running single wires instead of biwire(fyi the Tylers are setup for triwire) I currently have a jumper between the tweeter and midranges.
Good to hear you have made a change that improved the bass and eliminated most of the harshness in the top end. If you plan on keeping the speaker cables, I would definitely add the matching jumpers.

When it comes to bi-wire, some like it, some don’t, and others say it doesn’t do anything. I’ve tried it many times and finally come to the decision that I prefer single wire with matching jumpers. If your Blue Heaven was bi-wire, then that could possibly be part of the problem. If you have interest in bi-wire, my advice would be to try it before you make a commitment to purchase.
Perception: 1; physics: 0.


When you want a better understanding of bass in rooms, I suggest Dr. Floyd Toole's paper "Part Three: Getting the Bass Right." All the Harman whitepapers are worthy of study.