AC Regenerator


Does anyone who has a hi end system use a AC regenerator?
If yes, how much (%) the sound becames really better?
Worth?
Which is the best brand? 

Thanks a lot,


sacresta
I have been using PS Audio regenerators for years. I currently have my entire system connected to a PS Audio P5 regenerator, with the exception of my two powered subwoofers.  Even though the power I receive from the wall is relatively clean, (1.7% THD).  After regeneration, the power my equipment is being fed has .1% THD.  That is clean power.  The cleaner the power you deliver to your system, the cleaner each component begins its job of contributing to your system's musical performance.

The P3, P5, P10 series was a huge performance jump for PS's regenerators.  The previous model, the Premier Power Plant, although designed at PS's Colorado home was manufactured in China and reliability and therefore performance was problematic.  Example.  I plugged my entire system into my PPP and the power demand toasted the regenerator. PS Audio, being the customer service oriented company that it is, sent me a new PPP.  That was fine, but I had to buy a Duet power conditioner for my power amp. so I wouldn't toast this PPP.

Knowing the problems with the PPP, PS set out to redesign their regenerators and that effort gave birth to the P3, P5, P10 line.  They offered a generous upgrade stipend if you returned your PPP for one of the new models.  That's how I came to have my P5. It is designed and built in Boulder, CO.  It is built like, well, a tank!  Even with my power amp. plugged in with the rest of my system I am only using 30% of its capability!

PS Audio has recently redesigned their line again.  The P12, P15 and P20 are their current offerings.

Paul McGowan and Co. are a class outfit!  If you would decide to got the PS route, Don't get any of their models that precede the P3,5,10.

I love the sound of my system with the P5 and it is staying put.
I couldn't agree more. 
I am enjoying my P10.
Great company!!
I use a PS Audio P600 regenerator for my digital gear. ( Fruman REF20i for the other, amp to wall)I would say depends on what you are wanting to be 'better'.Generally conditioning will improve high frequency clarity and quality most, less grain and hash in HF sound. Tighten bass up. (less tubby) downside may seem like less bass output.
It may make the midrange seem a little less full, again tightening up.So, it you want more clarity, tighter sound. less grain.
Another PS Audio user here, dual P10's in my case.  I used a P300 back when PS Audio put out their first regenerator (late 90's), and I wasn't all that impressed (except by the waste heat - - wow did it get hot!).  The P10 is entirely a different story, delivering reliable power while generating just a bit of heat itself.  I agree with Elizabeth's general descriptions for the improvements to be had, but with the P10 I don't lose the bass output, even with my 300 watt ss Class A/B mono amps plugged in.  I get a system that does not vary so much from midday to late night, etc., and with all of the clarity and "rightness" of music.  I think they are well worthwhile.
@jbrrp1   Great point about the sound of the system not varying with time of day like it often does without regeneration!  That was one of the main reasons I bought my first regenerator, the P500, years ago.  You are right about the heat.  It was tough to run in the summer.

Oner more point I failed mention about my P5.  It does not restrict the dynamics of my system at all to run my 275 watt/ch. into 6 ohms SS amp off of it.

I'm listening right now to the Reference Recordings LP of Mike Garson's Oxnard Sessions Volume 2.  Spectacularly dynamic, spacious, just lovely sound.
PPP that I use does not restrict dynamics and makes everything better, including the dynamics. The wall current here is terrible, unstable and very dirty. My amp is 120 Watt/Ch, the entire system is plugged in the Premier. Power cord from the wall to PPP is Custom Cord Company Top Gun.
@inna   That's great!! I'm glad to hear that your PPP is working so well for you.  You are probably experiencing a significant improvement as you state you have "very dirty" power.  My incoming AC only has 1.7% THD.  From what you are saying your THD would be significantly higher than that making your PPP a true godsend.
Incoming THD is 2.0% at best and usually worse. In the past two years I made four upgrades: 1. PPP - biggest improvement, 2. Purist Audio Neptune interconnects between phono stage and integrated amp - second biggest, 3. Purist Audio Dominus RevB Ferox power cord for the amp - third biggest. But all three were quite big. I also got Tchernov Reference MK II interconnects that I use from phono to tape deck when I run the system like that, which is often. In this case Purist goes between deck and amp. In fact, in my system this arrangement gives overall the best sound from vinyl.
However, it still sounds better late in the evening than in the daytime. So, by audiophile standards PPP is not good enough. I'll probably upgrade to P5 or P10 at some point.
Clean power, regardless of how you accomplish it is to me the largest factor in a musical system. Put another way, the further up the line you improve the signal the greater effect you have throughout the system. I use balanced power throughout and it's great. I'm sure the PS Audio is great at this also. Reproducing music with dirty power is a compromise throughout. 
Just to mention all is not perfect in the regenerator world. The very small but forgotten problem of some tube equipment cannot use the PS Audio balanced power/Technical power output. Directly heated triode just cannot be used with  it.Then a few pieces of equipment DIED when the various multiwave features are used. (now THAT may be solved with newer models? But with older models the various multiwave modes CHANGE THE actual AC VOLTAGE to as high as 130V measured, even though the meter on the machine says 117. To read up on that you will need to Google some.
These turn into problems few, and far between. but have happened.Also the fact upping the AC frequency with older PS Audio machines may cause problems with the equipment connected. usually just lowering the AC frequency back some is all that is needed.Sadly most of these things are not really written about on the PS Audio website.    
I like my PS Audio P600 as much as anyone. But it is changing things, and you should know what it is doing, not just think it can do no wrong.
Aquired the most recent PS 15 Direcstream PowerPlant and repeat the previous messages.  Just sounds better all the time.  The newer 12, 15, and 20 are pricy but are more efficient, less heat, and bigger headroom.   With that all said my guess is their are some good deals to be had on the recent "older" generation 3, 5, and 10 PowerPlants.   I live in a condo complex with a lot of dirty power.   THD is going from 3.0% to .1%.   
I am so glad we have clean power in Australia: 240V +/- 2V and 50Hz +/- 1Hz.

In any case, I use a Monarchy Audio AC Regenerator for my line stage and to be absolutely honest, I can’t tell any difference with it in or out of my system. Having said that, the Regenerator absolutely bleached the sound of my 6W/channel SET power amp and equally dried out the sound of my Leben phono stage.

If you have "dirty" power then maybe, but for mine, power conditioning otherwise is a marketing beat up

Also, I thought quality components had quality power regulation as part of their circuitry?
I can’t praise Eaton Power Quality data Center UPS products highly enough. There is a marked difference between these on line double-conversion UPSs and substandard SOHO units. I use the Eaton Powerware 9130, which produces a pure, clean sine wave output, and can give detailed reports about utility power quality and of course load levels and runtime. The only downside is that these UPSs are fan cooled, and therefore cannot be used in the listening area. I have my units in the basement, freeding a sub panel that serves dedicated branch circuits to my system. 
Well, that should probably be extremely high quality components when we have a current like that. I didn't try Gryphon or Lamm in my place, this would be interesting.
Elizabeth, that's good to know. I think some turntable motors dislike changed frequency as well.
Interesting topic !! I jumped in higher end after 20 years of smaller experiments with audio gear. I am one who is using the latest PS audio P20 with the following gear:
ARC preamp ref 6
ARC phonostage ref 3
ARC power amps 150se
LINN Klimax DS
LINN klimax turntable
Sonus faber Amati

Before I hooked up the system with P20 all the above system was on Nordost platform which was QX4, QRT, QB and the Qkore. My cables are Nordost V2 and Odin2. 
I must say Elizabeth comments on tube amplifiers with regenerates is fully noted and its seem correct.
I had notice able differences between the Nordost and P20 setup. I personally preferred  the Nordost setup where the bass and tonabilty with soundstage was much better than the P20. I am surprised and it left me with a hole in my pocket. Over where I am residing in Asia  there is no free testing period....only 1hr of listening the most.
Anyway the P20 is still new with some 4hrs or so and the entire system is under 150hrs of operation since installed. It is definitely premature to gauge however this is my current predicament and assessment. 
I dont know what to expect and at the moment I am not sure which way to go.
Confused.... any suggestions?
Give it 500 hours, it may change and it may not.
In all my power conditioner experiments, I have noticed preamp sound better on NOT balanced power. 120V0V sounds better. The balanced power from my Furman REF20i and my personal preamps (I own five) the preamps tend to sound cleaner, but less 'full' in the midrange on balanced power. And I like them on regular 120v/0v neutral AC better.So my preamps are conditioned from the Furman conditioner, but not via the balanced lines.No problem for sources with balanced power....
And then,
Worth?
The whole system was improved?
About how much per cent?
Which brand is better?

That’s what I asked
Thanks a lot to who was objective in answers.
Thanks to the others too.
Hi I been reading all you guys responses.
Im a retired mad scientist from many govt and reaearsch areas of expertise and also an audiophile and musician.
Well im here to tell you all if you just buy a good big UPS battery supplied medical grade line voltage system your power will be a pure sinewave like you wont belive, its got to be a true sinewave not a cheap version unit. they dont cost as much as the stuff your talking about and we used them in Neclear reactors,MRIs and super critical analysis equipt all the time with excellent results.
yes the incomming line is garbage especially with all the new switching PS oscillators noising things up. So you cant get purer power than a properly modulated DC source. I run a few 8D 12 volt batts X10 =120 volts and a Techron Gradient amplifier(Crown) for 10000 watts of pure power where i can tweek the 60hz up and down at will and avoid inductor phase shift .
The E bag medical grade 5kwatt ubits are reasonable cost try it and see.
pardon the typing I got parkinsns.

oh I also remembered that tripplite made some super units that you can monitor and control with your PC and they go cheap from the computer server world often just needing new battery banks. Sola alo make some nice simple units. The Techron way is just my wierd method of  doing it,
I remember years ago someone here was talking about Phillips medical grade device he stole somewhere. He preferred it to everything else he tried and he tried just about everything.
I'll keep this in mind, thank you, perhaps that's exactly what I should try next instead of upgrading the regenerator.
I have had a PS Audio P1000 since 03 and overall it has been a plus in my system. There is more of a bIack background and the midrange tonality is a little clearer. When the amp is plugged in to it the bass is a luttle leaner but more defined. I run it on 60 hz. I have had my amp oscillate. I guess you could call it. It would softly drone in and out on multiwave. It will blow a preamp fuse now and then. Usually when we have a split sec power disruption. I don't use clean sweep anymore after blowing fuses. Don't hook up anything with a motor to it. It is a bruiser. I used to hook up a 600 watt amp to it now and then and there no problems except heat. And I bigger power bill! Regenerated power is costly with a big amp plugged in. I couldn't tell any loss in dynamics. However smart people here have wrote that the amp would exceed the amps or amperage of the power plant. I can't remember. I disconnected it from my system 2-3 months ago and just used a power strip. At first I said huh no difference. So I listened for about 2 weeks then switched back. Ahhh there is a difference. I don't believe in quick AB testing. You really have to get to know the  equipment and the equipment changes you make. I'm using my SACD player in just the filtered outlet and it sounds better to me. My system was sounding worse about 2 weeks ago. I made some changes and something corrected itself and now it sounds great and I don't want to touch it. In all honesty it could have been some dirty power coming down through the lines but thats what a power regenerator suppose to correct!!! Late night listening still sounds best. Must be something atmospheric I don't know.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/pv590-Powervar-Security-Plus-5000-Medical-UPS-120-208-240v-ABCDEF5200-22-NewBa/132736527223?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160727114228%26meid%3D8f8ce16ff26e4b5abdd03c3725770a89%26pid%3D100290%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D132736527223%26itm%3D132736527223&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507 Another possibility is run a 3 phase inverter unit but only use the output to a small 208 3ph to 120v x former and throw a few 10000 mfd 400 v caps across for good measure, this gives 100% line isolation, voltage correction and phase correction as well as a real clean wave. Ive setup major rock band sound boards with them to stabilize their setup when going all over to different stadiums and countries-yet the feed the sound equipt sees is always the same as it was set up in the studio. again e bad all over the place. avoid the chopped wave cheap chinese ones. also you can set up each phase to run different equipt while being isolated from the house groung line which is usually noisey and offset especially round dry climate and grounding points. Ive seen ac offsets of 40 volts on the ground rod at service entrance where the soil was not conductive enough.
Dont trust home Grounds ever!!
So are you saying my tube turntable pre-amp will sound worse with a pure sine wave device in front of it?
Post removed 
Your fine running tube equipment, tape decks, turntables and electric trains for the matter on a PS Audio unit. Just don't put it on any of the wave options and keep it on 60 hz. 
  About bad electricity. I downloaded one of the free apps for the measurement. I'm of electromagnetic radiation. It went way into the red placing it near a motorola walkie talkie. Same thing happened near a hairdryer. I got it to measure the electronic field on a tape head to see if. It needed demagnetized but couldn't find anything. All the ill effects of electricity is a new frontier. Imagine if used properly in a different way it could also heal!
They have already stumbled accross the anti-depressive effects of a brain MRI scan!!
blueranger
...  About bad electricity. I downloaded one of the free apps for the measurement. I'm of electromagnetic radiation ... I got it to measure the electronic field on a tape head to see if. It needed demagnetized but couldn't find anything ...
You need to use a magnetometer to measure that.
I thank you all, and now specially to "hemigreg", who brings us a very important theme with several comprehensivenesses, of great relevance in which I very much believe.
But
I think that my solution, at this moment, involves  cost and practicality of application.
An then I ask you : 

Where can I find good audio stores in New York City, or others cities where I can find  trustworthy used AC regenerators ???
Someone ’broke’ the page size! on this thread.
Now the text sprawls across the screen on down the block. to the next county...  
Hope this doe not become the new norm. (anyone know how to fix it???)Oddly when I edit, it forces everything momentarily back to 'standard' size.
But then refreshing, the page again gets that several block long thing back.
I just downloaded one. Thanks
Im currently working with one of NYs prominent Brain Neuralogists on stimilation of serotonin,dopamine,norepiephrimn with magnetic and RF and audio signals modulated upon music that the patient "likes" and it proves to work with 73% double bling exp.
im also using this to solve opoid addition by blocking the mu receptors like the drugs work. some major chemical details there that i wont getinto here. and lots of ion electrical excitation too. rememer every thing got a resonant freq(smile) got to love 432hsz.
anyway A regenerator is really a fanceyIsolation transformer with extra filters on in and outs nothing more. sorry vendor!!
read my link for audio physics for some good stuff.
Look at your signal on a good scope.
and nightime is when the line wave gets a bit cleaner cause most of the noise inducing motors and swithced supplies and not getting used.
do the math, the inducatance also of  old light bulbs tungsten -used to filter out some high freq line noise but with all the CFL and LED bulbs they are no longer in your house to be unintended RF filters/bypass loads.
I get into it on a regular basis with my local utility for the heck of it about all their "noise" even though i got it filtered-its just fun to be a pain in the butt for them and keep them honest
hemigreg
A regenerator is really a fanceyIsolation transformer with extra filters on in and outs nothing more. sorry vendor!!
That's completely false. You might want to open one up sometime, or study a schematic.
I have, but they were early ones in 90s. sorry for not updating my tear downs in 25 years. Im betting they are similar to the VFDs inverters starting with rectified filtered DC sourceed from isolated ac input. but prove me wrong and post the schematic if its not pripotary.
ill build one for cheap. some 2n3055s  are always good.
 I need a good physics discussion with a PHd in DC ion fields please PM me for an offline talk.
thanks
 

read link- see how much your wife drying her hair dupes your sound power supply and see how much JUST an isolation x former helps.

http://www.sacthailand.com/transformer_blitz.html 

I AM WAITING FOR YOUR HELP YET.

THANKS
OP

Do you think yelling will help?
hifiman,

Sorry if you think I'm angry. It's a matter of haste.  All contribuitions are wellcome. 
But somethimes the discussion goes so far from the topics that the objectivity is lost.
If you observe, this is the third time I ask about.
And I need a consistent feedback for an eventual decision, nothing more.

Thanks
If you want to BUY a NEW regenerator, there really is only one. PS Audio brand.   
Lots of folks are selling older ones.                
I own a PS Audio P600 I paid $1000 for it seven years ago.Yes it improves the sound. Like anything audio, the cost is not equal to the improvement.    
I also own a Furman REF20i/ Is one better????
I suggest buying it from someplace which you can return it if you do not like it.
"Like anything audio, the cost is not equal to the improvement" - - so true, Elizabeth!  You have to have been born with a pretty funny itch in your brain to spend like we do, but who's to judge what brings joy to one's soul?
$7500 for a P15 is too much for me.  I’ll decide to be happy with what I have.
You also could try the Accuphase PS 1230  or the little PS530.

A friend of mine has one for years and it’s been the endgame for him
I have a Torus AVR16 and very happy with it.
I was an early adopter of the PS Audio P300 and ended up with two of them because they made an astonishing sonic improvement in my source gear and preamp..  But they couldn't handle any power amp I owned (I know, these are supposed to sound better into the wall). 

 I have a TON of source gear -- 2 turntables, 3 R2R decks, CD/SACD player with separate tubed PS, cassette deck, tuner --and now have both a P10 and P5.  I tried the power amps (845 SET monoblocks) directly into the wall for comparison. Nope.  Sound better to me into the regenerators.  I wouldn't be without them.  Plus you get superb service and support from PSAudio.
I have owned many generations of the PS Power Plants. They are well worth the money.   here is my review on the new P15.  https://www.psaudio.com/products/directstream-power-plant-15/#tab-reviewshttp://
Forgot to mention there are also a tubed linestage and tubed phonostage (both Aesthetix) connected to the regenerators.
@hifiman5 —Hi, I'm really curious. How did you determine that your power line THD = 1.7%? How did you measure this? What instrument(s)?
Please advise, and thanks for guidance.
If you want to be battery powered, and truly off the grid, Stromtank is another option for a regenerator, if you have deep pockets.

I feel regenerators make theoretical sense, but in actual practice, are flawed. Firstly, the DC to AC conversion induces noise. Secondly, they usually do not deal with the noise generated by the devices. And the list goes on...

Paul McGowan, of PS Audio, stated on his forum, "Power Plants can’t and don’t affect ground." https://forum.psaudio.com/t/new-directstream-p12/5770/74

I would guess this is why the PS Audio Power Plant owners are still hearing a difference with the time of listening. All of the garbage polluting the ground is likely entering your components.

Prospective customers should audition for themselves, whether in-store, or through a return policy.
@vtvmtodvm
The P5 display window shows the amount of incoming THD and outgoing.  It tells you what percentage of the P5's capability you are using as well.  In that way you can tell if you are unduly taxing the unit.  In my case I appear to be in good shape as I am using only 30%.  By pushing once on the display's touchscreen you can see the incoming sine wave, push again for a visual display of incoming distortion on that wave and one more tap gets you the outgoing sine wave.  

Paul McGowan has been a believer in power regeneration for a very long time.  It just took time to develop the technology to the point where it is now.  It's been an interesting journey for those of us who've been riding that train for some time!