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... abit confused: how does a power cord affect the presentation of sound...
Hello to all...
I was shifting around components in my system, trying to squeeze out better controlled bass, more definition within the soundstage, and better define the "voice/midrange" presentation...
I presently have a tube preamp (hardwired with a wall wart) into an HT Receiver; source is a Marantz SA-8001 CD Player
Swapped out a Yamaha HTR -5550 (hardwired) for a Parasound HCA-750A (which needs a power cord).
CD Player is powered with a PS Audio Statement SC power cord, so I went in my closet and pulled out another PS AUDIO Statement SC power cord, hooked it up and expect to give it at least 5 days continuous re-break-in before serious listening.
Took a minute to lookup reviews about this power cord - and I read some rather confusing reviews: some luved 'um, some liked 'um, but some thought them " ...slow... " (?), and giving a veiled presentation...
I'm gonna listen and decide myself - but I'm abit confused: how does a power cord affect the presentation of sound - I know that interconnects and speaker cables would/could/Do affect sound presentation - but how could a power cord?
Explanation/thoughts please...
I was shifting around components in my system, trying to squeeze out better controlled bass, more definition within the soundstage, and better define the "voice/midrange" presentation...
I presently have a tube preamp (hardwired with a wall wart) into an HT Receiver; source is a Marantz SA-8001 CD Player
Swapped out a Yamaha HTR -5550 (hardwired) for a Parasound HCA-750A (which needs a power cord).
CD Player is powered with a PS Audio Statement SC power cord, so I went in my closet and pulled out another PS AUDIO Statement SC power cord, hooked it up and expect to give it at least 5 days continuous re-break-in before serious listening.
Took a minute to lookup reviews about this power cord - and I read some rather confusing reviews: some luved 'um, some liked 'um, but some thought them " ...slow... " (?), and giving a veiled presentation...
I'm gonna listen and decide myself - but I'm abit confused: how does a power cord affect the presentation of sound - I know that interconnects and speaker cables would/could/Do affect sound presentation - but how could a power cord?
Explanation/thoughts please...
212 responses Add your response
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"To answer the OP's question, I found that PCs can and will affect the dynamics and the size of the soundstage. Doing that, all manner of lessor effects happen. Don't fall for the red herring of "all that romex and junk" the power goes through before you get it. All that came before it is moot since what you need to do is get the best you can from where it all terminates: the outlet. When you cook a steak, do you worry about the rest of the cow that came before it?" +1 Nonoise / Well stated! |
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I’m afraid there is no good explanation that can satisfy the naysayers. There’s a difference between someone who says “I can’t discern a difference between stock or aftermarket power cord, thus it makes no difference.” and “There can’t be a difference (usually follow up with a scientific reason). Be wary about those who say the latter. They’re usually the measurement crowd -:) To answer OP question, just like IC’s and speaker cables; after markets power cords do alter the sound of your equipment. I consider cables as essential ‘tweaks’ for fine tuning my audio system. |
Hello “insearchofprat,” I hope you are not overwhelmed with opinions as opposed to facts. Do you remember the little pocket FM radios that fed earphones. Athletic folks used them to exercise to music. Those radios did NOT have hard, collapsible antennas. How did they get the signals from the radio stations? They used the ground wire to the earphones as an antenna. It was a cute trick. Using a part called an RF choke, it is possible to isolate a wire, even a ground wire, at radio frequencies so that it behaves as an independent wire and can be used as an antenna. So we know that a wire can simultaneously carry radio and audio information. Have you ever been peacefully listening to music when the garage door went up, a refrigerator came on, or somebody turned on a hair dryer and a noise of some kind came out of your loudspeakers? Electrical garbage on the power lines can carry all kinds of unwanted “noise” into your audio gear. Ever hear police calls” on a PA system? For many years, power supplies were considered “necessary evils” in audio gear. They filtered out the power line frequency so gear didn’t hum and that was that. Nowadays, the power supplies are often more complicated than the audio circuits. There is a reason! You have heard claims of “blacker blacks” when fancy power cords are used. You have heard of intermodulation distortion. Suppose some electrical garbage on the power line gets into your amp; it’s way above the audio frequencies. Your power supply doesn’t stop it. It mixes with your audio signal, produces sum, difference, product, and quotient signals which themselves interact with the audio and buzz, hiss, rumble, and grumble their way into you loudspeakers. Oops! Enter the well designed fancy power cord. It is shielded and its conductors are made of fancy stuff and wound, twisted, and spaced in mysterious ways to reduce the amount of electrical garbage that makes it into you audio gear. This will be very noticeable on older equipment with simple power circuits. It may NOT be noticeable on new gear with exotic, well designed, power supplies. So the guys (or ladies) with the latest, fancy, hi-end gear say, “These products are snake oil. I have extremely fine gear and have never heard any improvement made by these expensive power cords.” But the fellows (or ladies) with vintage gear, stripped down “just the essentials” perfectionist products, perhaps budget gear say, “Wow, my whole system improved when I installed the Big Bad Bear Power Chord (or power conditioner, or magic noise killer). My top end became much clearer, the mid range sweeter, and the blacks blacker!” Both are correct, but should not pass judgement on the results that others experience. Some of my gear shows a difference and some shows no difference at all. A fancy power cord? Use it where if it works. If it doesn’t, send it back. Keep Smiling. I hope this helps. |
What is most disheartening is the usual level of debate in these threads. Most often it goes something like this: Yes they do. No they don't. Yes they do. No they don't. Yes they do... Many cable manufacturers don't help, with the promotional verbiage that makes any electrical or electronic engineer roll their eyes. I quoted Wireworld's claims above. Can anybody comment on them with some reasonable degree of level-headed knowledge/insight? |
twoleftears2,772 posts07-21-2020 1:45pm That "low triboelectric noise" refers to their insulation, what they call Composilex, which they claim is superior to any conventional insulation including Teflon (from Dupont). I don't claim to know what "triboelectric noise" means, but a quick Google search: https://experience.molex.com/triboelectric-noise-in-medical-cables-and-wires/ As for blocking outside interference, I am pretty sure they are talking about blocking stuff like radio, tv, phone signals etc. something that @boomerbillone described in very good details right above |
Let think about it. If you're saying the cable is the last 3ft, then why would a power supply be any different? That is the power supply is the last one after many miles of cables, just like the power supply cord as the last 3ft, then why a power supply would make a difference at all? People who are using water analogy and conclude that a power supply cable should not make any difference. But electrons are not water. Before you turn on the kitchen faucet, there is no water in the kitchen in the first place. On the other hand, before you power up your equipment, the electrons ALREADY in the equipment. Look at the tiny fuse in your equipment. You intuitively think that it has to be the bottleneck but obviously that is not the case. Now if you're using a power supply cable as tiny as the fuse, things won't be very good. Your equipment may not work properly. Why is it that a fuse can be tiny and slim, but not the power cable? Because electrons are not as intuitive as you think. |
You're asking why is a power supply different than a cable? I didn't notice anyone mention water but you. The power supply effectivly stops RF getting in and out with electrostatic screens between the primary and secondary in the transformer. As long as the power cord is of sufficient quality to provide the required current to the component that's all you need. |
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I understand that many subjects have already been discussed many times over the years. However, many times, it is difficult to surf through the years of posts to find adequate responses. So, it really isn't a problem for a new audiophile to post a topic that has been discussed several times previously. If you can lead the person to earlier posts, then fine. If not, then it serves no real purpose rubbing it into their face that this has been discussed many times. That person was not here then. In any case, Power Cords are basic. Then first must be able to handle with margins the voltage and current requirements. That is mandatory. In addition is the impedance of the cable. This impedance varies over frequency. This is the real problem. If the interconnecting and terminating equipment isn't designed to handle this variation in cable impedance over frequency, then this is what really effects (afftects?) the signal and the sound. And yes, this is indeed measurable. Cable and transmission line science is known and has been around for many decades. This is really why different cables may make the same system sound different. Also, I can't recall if most cable manufacturers actually list the impedance of cables over frequency. This, to me would be the most helpful of information. This is also why some companies have "networks" attached to cables. They are designed to minimize the impedance of the cables over the frequency range. Over certain frequencies, it provides for "resonance". in other words, the impedance due to inductance of the cable negates the "impedance" due to the capacitance of the cable and you are left (hopefully) with an unchanging minimum resistance value. So, yes, cable can and do make a significant difference in sound quality of the system. However, It does also depend on how well designed or how poorly designed was the interconnecting equipment and whether they can handle the changes in cable impedance over frequency. Another reason why some equipment manufacturers "recommend" certain cables. They've tested their equipment with certain cables, so they know. A quick bit of history and humor. I purchased years ago a Mark Levinson 23.5 amp used. It arrived with the incorrect power cord. It sounded as if the singer was literally being strangled. I contacted the seller and he realized that he shipped the wrong power cord with the amp. He sent the correct cord and all was well. I was in Stereo Design in San Diego years ago with friends listening to their top system. It was great. The representative quickly changed one set of interconnect cables for another and it was like he changed speakers. I'm an Electrical/Electronics Engineer. So was my friend. This made no sense to us, until we thought it through. So yes, cables do make a difference. My view is that if I listened to a piece of equipment in the store with manufacturer supplied cable, then that's fine for me in my home system. But, typically, the stores use much better or more expensive cabling in the top demonstration systems. Which they should be telling us and at a minimum also demo the equipment with the cord that will be supplied with the equipment so we can make an educated and economic decision at that time. just my thoughts. enjoy |
My own experiments, not with cable tough, prove to my ears that all the electrical grid of the house is ONE entity in the perspective of an audio system... Anything i put all along, modify the S.Q. i experimented with my own creation homemade device and various stones and minerals.... Then thinking that a power cord will affect the S.Q. is more than probable for me, never mind the equations that some will throw at my head to the contrary... :) |
Interesting point. Considering how all that current has to flow through a ’tiny’ fuse, yet a big honking power cord can still make a change to the overall sound still boggles my mind.Richard Feynman once said if anyone thinks he understands quantum physics, he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. How electrons and currents are not as intuitive as one thinks. There are still things that can’t be relied on "common sense". There are people who think as long as the power cord is big enough, then that’s all you need. I actually have some power cords that are more than thick enough but they sound a bit "slow". How they are constructed also affects the sound. |
This is my first time posting. I thought I join in the fun. I’m no electrical engineer but here are my thoughts: 1. The miles of cables before the wall outlets have no bearing on the quality of the sound just like the miles of dirty river water before our faucets. It’s the purity of the signal before entering the electronics that matters. 2. In audio, it’s all about vibration. It’s about the vibration of the electrons in the cable to the vibration of the particles in the air. If the electrons can vibrate in perfect sync, we get perfect sound. The quest of the cable makers is to reach this perfection. The differences in characteristics of the vibration of the electrons in the cable define the sound we hear. My 2 cents. |
Personally, I would keep a large pot of boiling snake oil on my component rack if it made things sound better. Instead, I use nice power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables because they DO make things sound better. Many compare stock to relatively inexpensive upgrades. I tried this and noticed little improvement. Tried Audience AU24SX and noticed nice improvement. Not worth arguing why. They just sound better to me and are thus worth it to me. Ken. |
If you are somewhat handy I encourage you to experiment building your own power cable. Solid core dead soft silver wire (riogrande.com) placed in cotton tubing (ebay) with heat shrink tubing on outside for safe insulation. Ground can be solid copper but needs to be thicker gauge to achieve lower resistance compared to same length silver. Techflex on outside. Terminate with high quality pure silver plugs. Silver is the best conductor. Cotton minimizes power storage. I was not able to find a scientific explanation why power cords have an impact on sound. But all components in my system benefited from this power cord upgrade (even turntable!) - with most noticeable improvement on CD player and preamp. |
We can leave the scientific measurements to the experts but what we do know is that power cords can and do have a big impact on sound whether it's negative or positive Sometimes with power cord experimentation you can come up with a most positive outcome as if you went out and spent thousands of dollars upgrading your components. Other times certain power cords could possibly degrade the sound. I think it falls back on that cabling is system dependent. Decibell your right, building your own power cords can be fun and save you money! |
There is only one explanation to be given until someone can figure out what is to be measured for... They change the sound. Depending on your system it will determine how much they can improve the sound. Some systems - no difference. Other systems - a great difference can be detected from cord to cord. But this stands true. They change the sound in any system with good transparency. |
Why spend so much money on an expensive power cord? Just make sure that the copper wire gauge is more than sufficient for the current draw of your equipment - particularly the power amplifier. If in doubt, go with the next thickest (lowest number gauge) to minimize voltage drop. The power supply of any quality audio component will absorb and properly filter any interference that might be picked up by an unshielded cord. Use the money saved to upgrade the quality of those components instead. Don't be fooled by the audio hype! I have followed the power cord advice of legendary Marantz experts Sid Smith and Dick Sequerra for over 60 years with absolutely no regrets |
I already stated the technical side. 1. voltage handling capability must be met 2. Current carrying capability must be met 3. Impedance (resistance, inductance, capacitance) changes over frequency. this is the reason why cables that meet 1 & 2 but are different on number three show differences in sound. These are measurable. This is known science. Same with amps/pre-amps. If you really want to see why certain pieces operate and hence sound different, even if they have the same WPC, gain, etc. Look at the transfer function response of that piece over frequency. That will tell you all you need to know. Then, take an amp that "sounds wonderful" vs an amp that is so-so with the same gain, WPC and look at the transfer function response and it is eye opening. However, most don't design for transfer function response first. That is what is measured after the prototype is designed or built. For amps, it is: 1. input impedance 2. Output impedance 3. Gain 4. input signal level (min/max) 5. Frequency response 6. Power output 7. phase response 8. Noise level 9. Distortion 10. a few other things. You decide on circuit design/layout and chose the components that suit your goals and go for it. All of the above are equation based and can be calculated. For cables, it is similar. 1. which material offers the least capacitance and inductance 2. What is the impedance per foot of the material to be used. If you can make the cable impedance virtually zero over the frequency range, that is what you really want. A straight wire with no impedance. you are basically connecting the terminating equipment directly to the interconnection equipment. This is Engineering 101. But, as mentioned, if the interconnecting/terminating equipment is so sensitive in design that a slight change in cable impedance affects the sound, then that is a real problem. some equipment is so well designed, that it is hard to hear differences in cables. On others, you really can. I imagine for some "high end" expensive cables, the impedance over frequency is extremely low. for power cords, if it can't handle the voltage requirements it is not suitable. If it can't handle the current requirements, it is definitely not suitable. Lastly, the impedance of this cable (transmission line) has to be really low over the frequency range. enjoy |
Here's my $0.02... I didn't believe PC could make any difference. (I studied electronics). Borrowed a cable (Kimber) from a friendly Audio store (Q-Audio in Cambridge, MA). To my and my friend's utter amazement the cable DID make a pretty obvious difference in sound (context: MF M6si, KEF 104/2, AQ CV-8). Punch line: neither of us preferred that (more veiled) sound. Both of us would characterize the sound as less in-your-face, more veiled, more suited to very long listening sessions w/o getting tired. But both of us preferred the sound with the stock cable. I would still use whatever came with the amp even if I could have the $300 PC for free. But the sound difference was undeniable and an eye-opener for us both. |
Guys - this is a complex issue, but broken down into its individual components it's relatively easy to understand. I've attempted to over-simplify and explain this in the past and got all kinds of negative feedback - so I apologized for causing a controversy and stopped trying to explain the physics, magnetics and electro mechanics, dielectrics, metallurgy and engineering - of signal transmission. teo_audio - what you stated is true, but you didn't explain the contexts nor did you explain the terms you use so "lay" people could understand them. Reminds me of some professors in grad school. Are you trying to make yourself appear intelligent? Are you trying to sell your cable products? Or are you trying to allow people to understand how things work? Maybe you are being sincere and that's the way you relate to people - if that's the case, my condolences. I would like to see the engineering of your cables. Long story made short - power cords, interconnects and speaker wire most certainly play a part in system performance. I'm not trying to convince anyone, so please save the banter. A system has to be at a high enough fidelity level to reveal the performance difference of each component - not just with equipment, but with set up, room acoustics and source material. "The chain is only as strong as the weakest link" - most of the systems I've experienced were not set up to perform their best, including many high end dealer showroom systems for premier product introductions (some in NYC)! I've been involved in this commodity for more than 35 years (man, I'm old) and I've only experienced a handful of systems that were set up to perform to their best potential. A handful! Anyone who believes differently is welcome to bring their own wires to my home and I'll blindly switch them into and out of our system. Only prerequisite is you have to agree to report the results here before you visit. I live in the central NJ area. Every single person who heard our system easily noticed differences when something was changed - especially non-audiophiles. My wife notices and she doesn't pay nearly the attention I do. Believe whatever you want - again, I'm not trying to persuade anyone. Those with an open mind and willing to learn can gain an understanding of why and how things work with relatively little research. Many people enjoy their music and system with different objectives, I strive to assemble a system which reproduces the recorded event as it was performed. That is - to have the highest fidelity possible. It's far from perfect but for smaller acoustic venue performances, our system is very convincing. Stated another way - it sounds like the real thing, very close to the real thing - though it will never be mistaken for the real thing. Our son can play his sax in our music room and then we'll play some well recorded sax music and you can see / hear for yourself. To create a system that sounds like real music requires one to listen to live music - and not just on rare occasions. So many people state - this is better because it has more pronounced bass, or has a bigger image, or any one of a number of issues that demonstrate they're not using live music as a reference. Good luck with trying to put together a system that conveys the emotion of the music. Last friend I had over to experience our system, upon first hearing it - put his face in his hands and kept repeating "Oh My God" because he never heard a system sound like real music. He asked for my help and I told him I'd help him, and he then went out on his own and made expensive equipment purchases that won't allow his system to perform to it's potential. Go figure. I asked if he was happy with his system, he said he was and I sincerely wished him well. I gave up trying to share and help people. Everyone has their own preconceived notions and is convinced of it. People even dispute each other here on Audiogon instead of having an open forum so concepts can be explained and shared. Sharing experiences and information shouldn't be so difficult, but unfortunately it is. Best to everyone - I normally don't post such things but I guess the last experience with a fellow audiophile friend prompted this. |
As an electronics guy here is my opinion Take it or leave it. A power cords whole purpose in life is to supply power. Many manufacturer's will do a great job in circuit design, power supply design and for some reason overlook the amperage rating of the power cord to consistantly deliver the needed power without losing the power through resistance loss in heat. I have seen power cords warm to the touch on high quality power amps. If you feel any heat anywhere from the plug on down, then the power cord is under rated. In this forum I would think it can happen often. Appliance power cords are cheap and you can direct connect them the same depending if they were soldered or used connectors. To hear the difference it would cost much. I would be more concerned with conditioning the power having voltage regulation, RF filtering. Under voltage, over voltage and spike arrestor before looking at the cord. |
djones51, please reread my post, I never said that power cords and the impact they have on our systems can not be measured. Rather I'm not concerned with measurements, only with the way they sound in my system.To phd, Ignore him. He's just trolling all the cable threads and his posts make no sense. I think he got nothing better to do. |
The best power cord is NO power cord. Why adulterate that painstakingly selected Romex 14-2 cable and the two Siemens circuit breakers that supply that pure pristine electrical power to your outlet? Just remove the outlet and continue with a short run of Home Depot Romex directly to the power switch of your components. Or just buy the plug and IEC jacks and construct your own power cable out of that magical Romex cable? Keep it pure fellas. |
"All I was saying is this is an opinion "we" don't know any thing of the kind. If this statement is true then the reason for it is measurable, the power cord has some anomaly" dowjones, As I've stated before, I suspect some day science will catch up to our little hobby & figure out what measurement accurately correlates to what we hear with the human ears/brain. They haven't yet. |
