A true believer

"I will allow you to restate this. I assume you spoke in haste. It seems as if you are saying musicians don't know how to listen to music. I played as an adult, not age 10. Maybe musicians just know what to listen for. One of the old mags had a feature where they featured systems owned by famous music artist. very, very interesting. No krell:)"

Indeed you are right, it was written in haste and I didn't edit it, tried to after it was sent but the edit option was off. What should have been said is that many play music but to me playing music and listening to music are different experiences. As an example I remember years ago Sterophile had a reviewer that happened to be a musician as if that might somehow give him an edge at hearing live music and what his choices might be in choosing equipment. In any event, he performed a review on I believe it was the B&K 800 speakers, their flagship at the time. What was so silly to me is that these speakers were set-up in a very small space relative to the size of the speaker. The review fell flat to me because unless a speaker this size is going to be realized to its full potential it MUST be evaluated in an appropriate space. What ran through my mind is that this guy sits in the middle back part of the orchestra and maybe how the speaker performed in his room might have indicated how he likes to hear reproduced music. Why Atkinson, the editor would allow this is beyond me. Of course the speaker got raves from him but over time I found the vast majority of his reviews pedantic and useless until I stopped reading anything he wrote. I am NOT saying musicians don't know how to listen to music, they most certainly do, but they don't all necessarily listen for the same things as many audiophiles. Then again there are musicians that ARE audiophiles and many contributing to this forum. When I am playing piano it sounds much different than when listening to a performance in an audience, skill level aside, so it is not my basis when listening to a performance as listener.

I’m going to give you a specific example of a highly regarded, very expensive ic that was forwarded to me to evaluate in my system. Actually I was given 3 pair of this i.c. When I say expensive I am speaking of insanely expensive, more than double the 2.5k retail of the wire I currently use. I started out, as I always do, connecting the source component to the pre-amplifier. There were two other listeners on hand when this evaluation was performed. When we first started listening it was IMMEDIATELY apparent to everyone that the sound was MUCH clearer, more forward, and more to the point, practically unlistenable, very etchy in the upper frequencies and unbalanced top to bottom. This compared to a more modestly priced cable I was currently using at the time. We listened for a full half hour then decided to add another ic from pre-amp to the Merlin BBAM (battery BAM I was using at the time) The effect we initially heard became more emphasized. We continued on running the last pair from the BAM to the amplifier, the issues compounded. You get the idea. What I am saying is this, I don’t know what the cause was, break-in of the cable, synergy issues with the speaker (most likely), interference with the amplifier which incorporates high frequency radio signals as a signal carrier, or poor design but I will say that it didn’t take golden ears to hear it. I am not saying this cable is bad or isn’t be all end all that was ascribed to it by others but IN MY SYSTEM, it was amusical. I have had similar negative experiences with other cables as well, some quite expensive and very nice results with moderately priced cable. Generally inexpensive cable, basically bulk wire doesn’t sound bad generally but doesn’t convey the nuances that my system can clearly resolve with better cables and is generally lacking a great deal at the frequency extremes. The real devil lies in the frequency extremes in my experience, light airy natural upper frequencies and controlled natural bass as you hear it live, not accentuated as some speakers and amps tend to do. Some like this, personally I don’t, again an issue of taste but driven by how I hear live music.
An example of a cable that can really tame a system that is out of balance is MIT, I owned a pair designed specifically for tube gear and they weren’t cheap. I really loved them at first but realized over time that they manipulate the sound with their network boxes. To me a cable should ideally pass the signal through without adding or subtracting anything but most importantly do no harm. Some do better than others. The one I choose for my system was the best at doing this to my ears by far over the countless others I tried. So my conclusions are based on real world experiences in a familiar system. I am not one to get in the middle of this argument but only to convey personal experiences. Hopefully it provides some value, if not that’s ok too, I don’t care one way or the other, this isn’t life or death, it’s audio. If you want to continue calling people out as somehow being deluded or tricked, have at it. If your hero is Julian Hirsh that’s ok too, my conclusions about him were formed 10 years before I discovered high end audio and later an audiophile and was not formulated by anyone or anything other than Hirsh himself. If a person has gone down the same path as I have and come to a different conclusion, I respect what they hear. There is plenty of white noise on the internet and this site isn’t immune. What I really value is learning from others their experiences and hopefully gain more knowledge and in return try to reciprocate. This is the true value of this forum to share and give informed opinions.
You are not going to get the answer you are looking for concerning wire, at least the real science of what we are hearing because that chapter hasn't been written yet. You remember the last thread where a cable manufacturer gave his theories as to what was causing what we hear with an emphasis on timing issues. Just because something cannot be measured or heard by some does not mean it doesn't exist or can't be heard by others. Amplifiers clearly sound different, so when you harken back to the days of old when many but certainly not all believed this so, it tells me that you haven't listened to many truly resolving systems or you wouldn't dare come onto a forum like this and say such things. It comes across as somewhat foolish, I'm sorry but this is true.
You seem to be a generally nice guy and I DO like your sense of humor but if you really want to get on board here, open up your mind and try to listen to some systems instead of spewing the same old nonsense. Maybe an audio show would be a great place to start; you will also meet some very cordial, knowledgeable folks.

"Back in the olden days when I was in college, 901s were coveted by lots of people. I envied my friends that could afford them...."

Me too!

"Cables are just like religion. Everyone believes they have the right one."

I believe this is a naive statement Elizabeth. I personally don't believe in the "right" anything but to the person that is willing to lay down the green. There are always synergy and taste issues with everything.

I do believe with the majority that so far as putting together a truly musically satisfying system the components should be first and foremost, that is where the major focus should start. The real truth is found in the satisfaction we find in listening to the music we love. Accessories whether they be vibration isolation, room treatments, cables, powercords, upgraded capacitors, tubes etc. can all contribute in no small way towards what we hear.

I've got a system that has essentially the same components for the past 8 years. The foundation was there to build on. The improvements realized (listening enjoyment) to this system has been gradual and significant, a cummulative effect. It is quite satisfying to me to have come to this point without getting the upgrade bug but REALIZING the major components work together no doubt, you know and go from there. This is experience, this is knowing from previous trial and error. It can't be taken away regardless of what others have experienced, you know what you have learned from where you were to where you are. You learn what works and what doesn't. You find out about the snake oil products and the ones that are worth your dollars and you make your choices. It isn't about religion at all, it is really nothing more than a personal journey to find what each of us is looking for. I can't qualify what someone should spend on a pair of cables, or a powercord for that matter. I would only say listen to as many as you can which is what I did and settle for the ones that work best. What works in one system may not in another but if someone is foolish enough to spend a disproportionate amount on cables and powercords rather than spent wisely on the actual components that make the music, its their choice. Possibly knowledge will be gained from such folly. Bottom line tweeking is where it ends, not starts but unless you have gone down this road, don't discount what can be achieved, you might be quite suprised.

I KNOW I have purchased wisely. I could resell my pre-amp, amplifier and turntable easily for what I originally paid. My cd transport a JVC 1050TN I've had for 20 years and its great, paid 800.00 new, solid and dependable. It was highly regarded in its day and still is in my book. My DAC is under 1K new, it is a NOS DAC with a tube output, no opamp, it is simply amazing for the money. I'm sure not ready to plunk down 5k on what I know would be better but not by much. The i.c. and speaker cables would take somewhat of a hit but even then I purchased at a good price, less than retail but I have had them for 6 years with no desire to upgrade, its finished and I am as happy today as when I purchased them. Power cords, 300.00 pair max. each. Speakers are 10 year old Merlin VSM-M that keep rising to the occasion, I might upgrade to the latest Merlin in the future but I keep reconsidering because it is hard for me to believe that the new ones could be too much better than what I'm hearing. The rest of the tweeks including homebrewed bass traps, isolation platforms and vibration control devices, Stillpoint speaker stands my Custom David Berning designed tube BAM to augument the bass frequencies with the VSM have all been money well spent not to mention cap upgrades in my pre-amp along with numerous tube combinations to find the best mix for my tastes and goals.

Agaffer, it seems to me going reading through the thread that it morphed into a simple observation by you in your opening into yet another thread about cables and their value vs price. I tend to agree in general with this theory. On the other hand I do not believe it is always the case.

The only point I attempted to make is that I "bought into" ic cables that retail for 2,500.00 a 1 meter pair throughout the system. The further point is that they DID make a significant difference (read improvement) after doing numerous controlled comparisons over an extended period of time, years, with cables at different price points. I was willing to pay what I did at the time though it certainly wasn't retail. The part about letting the music through without a signature that was obvious, a clarity that was different than what I had previously experienced, an epiphany moment. Maybe there is something out there comparable to what these cables do in my system at a much cheaper price but at the time I sure didn't find it. I don't consider myself irrational with ANY expenditures, least of all audio, and can certainly afford whatever I'm willing to spend. Again, you put down your money and live with your choices. It always has been less about the gear to me than getting a desired result.

Rok2id

I REALLY am starting to enjoy your sense of humor! Keep it up, it keeps things on a lite note:)

rok2id - A simple question to you, do you really believe that all amplifiers sound alike? Julian Hirsh measured gear, he didn't really listen. He was the voice of the flat earthers of audio. Even back in those days when I was a music enthusiast, not an audiophile I found most of his reviews useless. The same bs every month with the same measurements and the same conclusions, what was the point? Do you believe that a vintage tube amplifier sounds the same as a cutting edge SS amplifier or the other way around? Have you ever really listened? You do a lot of pontificating but you really haven't said much about your experience listening. We've gone down this road before but before you advance to 2nd base you've got to make it to first, first, just saying, but other than what you believe about wire, which many on this site agree with, I'm not too sure these same folks would put themselves in the Hirsh camp concerning amplifiers so long as amp/speaker interface is in line. If he's your guru good for you, stay there and be happy but to me you are a rookie who adds nothing more than entertainment value in your posts. Have a nice day! ;^)

"what an arrogant statement!!! YOU found his reviews useless?? Why? Because he didn't say the nonsense you wanted to hear? Are you saying there is a difference between a music 'enthusiast' and an audiophile? hmmmmm"

My point rok2id is that I found a redundancy to his commentary that proved to be quite boring over time and I stopped subscribing, probably in the mid 70. The difference between a music enthusiast and an audiophile. Well this is a bit more complicated because I believe there are many music enthusiasts that are not audiophiles and many audiophiles that are not really music enthusiasts. An audiophile by general definition might be described as one that is focused on the "sound" of reproduced music.

"But I hope you weren't trying to insult me bying saying i'm just comic relief. :) If you think i'm comical, I suggest you read 99% of the posts on this site. I know my input is not as weighty as 'what time do you wear', or 'why don't more people like high-end audio?' when I read that title I roll on the floor. :)"

Well, if the shoe fits, live with it:) No all I'm saying is that you continuously harp on the same points but I'm not too sure you have had the experience of listening as some on this site have, thats all especially if you think all amplifiers sound the same. A Threshold sounds like a Krell, or Spectral sounds like a Boulder? come on now....the differences may not be apparent to you but they certainly are to those that can differentiate and are willing to pay, who's arrogant? Me?

"I mostly only comment on wire. I have a million questions, but no one is interested. I don't really care where most folks put themselves."

Yes, you have a million questions and you keep on asking, often sarcastically I might add. As I've stated before, I personally don't care what anyone believes about wire. I'm sure some don't hear differences and in many cases neither do I but as I've stated before, some will agree and some disagree, I have heard BIG differences in wire in profoundly negative as well as positive examples. Why not quit asking questions as to the science which has been pounded to death. After all, how can a wire that simply passes a signal make an effect on sound? To some it does, to others it doesn't to some in some cases yes, to others in all cases no. You just have to listen for yourself but as I have previously stated as well, the differences will be more profound the more resolving the system. This is one area where questions can't be answered, you have to listen and make your own conclusions.

Yada yada about playing in bands, listening to recorded. Many of us have as well. I don't place any value on my experience playing music since I was 10 to the present as having any value on what I hear in reproduced audio. Playing in a band or as a musician is not the way you hear it when you hear as a listener as opposed to participant. Listening not playing (performing) is the benchmark for me. I have been to countless concerts of all genres of music over the years, from bars, coffee houses, outdoor arenas, indoor areas, churches, schools, opera houses, auditoriums, any kind of venue you can name. It is the way live music sounds, the characteristics that make it sound live that makes ME an audiophile, trying to capture that, it is elusive for sure but it is what drives me, not Julian Hirsh, Len Feldman, JG Holt, Harry Pearson or any of them. It is the search for the truth as I hear it, not what I am told or read.

Over time there are people I come to respect and trust whether it be audiophiles or rag reviewers. It is for the consistency of what they hear, not necessarily their tastes, this is most important but nothing is more important than listening for yourself. If you are satisfied with what you are hearing thats fine but cut it with the PT Barnum malarky and try a new line, you still have the same audience:)

"Why is it that, when I read one of your posts, I feel more stupid than usual. :) You are one of the more thoughtful and knowledgable guys on this site. And you do speak from personal experience. There is no subsitute for that."

Well I try to be thoughtful but so far as knowledgable, I'm not too sure about that! There are many MUCH more experienced folks than I am concerning audio knowledge. What I AM confident in and what we all should aspire to is learning to trust what we hear. That takes time and experience to develop. Critical listening is not always easy, it is a process but is necessary to develop hearing acuity and discerning differences. The more you practice it the more you develop it and can trust it. I see it more as a learned discipline than an innate ability though some are better at it than others.

Telling the differences between tubes in a given circuit in many cases is quite easy. I'm sure I could readily identify all the 6sn7 line stage tubes I have on hand in my preamp because I am so familiar with their given characteristics from listening over the years. The differences between some are not at all subtle, some are closer. Some of the other tubes in the circuit, the regulators and rectifier are not as easy to identify as to the brand but the effect that each makes to the presentation is different and not at all difficult to hear. Soundstage can be greatly affected by the tube used. I have one particular 6sn7 tube that seemingly expands the soundstage at the expense of image location and focus, a clear distortion to my ears, some rave about it, huh? To each his own but for sure I know it is not a good tube and I would never recommend it. The best tubes increase performance in all parameters without altering the sound. Tubes can be about flavoring but that is not what I'm after, been down that road. A really well balanced tube circuit with the right compliment of tubes can be a revelation and doesn't lose out to ss in any area and can make the music come alive. You need to hear one Rok2id, you might be surprised how far they've come from what you might expect.