Well played. Honesty and transparency allows peaceful sleeps.
A Record Collection/Moral Conundrum - What Would You Do?
Folks,
I’ve been rolling around an issue and I’m simply curious what others would do in my place.
Here’s the situation:
I had an long time great friend and audiophile buddy who I’ll call "John." Around 2009 or so John wanted to open a restaurant. I lent him some money. You already know how this story goes and why we aren’t friends anymore.
But to add some detail, he asked for a heap of money because he was in a fix - said he was expecting a bunch of money (from the government as I remember - showed me some papers about it) but it was going to show up a bit too late, so could I lend him the money just for about a month then he’d pay me back. I explained I was just starting a renovation of a room in my house turning it in to my long-dreamed of home theater, which I’d saved for, and that it would come out of my own savings for that project. I was very hesitant, he begged, promised it was only for a few weeks. I said I could lend him 1/2 of what he was asking (otherwise I couldn’t even pay for the contractors coming).
One of those situations where long time, very good friend who I knew was a good person, who was only ever honest with me, needed help. So I stepped in. That’s always how it goes, right? Yes, I learned the hard lesson about lending money.
Needless to say the money didn’t show up the next month. Or the next. Or the next. Whenever I asked it was another story on how the restaurant was sucking every spare dollar, he’d pay me as soon as he could. Of course the restaurant quickly went under. I was like "I need that money, I have contractors to pay" and he just said he didn’t have any to give. Next he told me he was selling his house, downsizing, and he’d use the funds to pay off his debts including to me. Ok. What else was I going to do?
He asked if he could store his much beloved record collection at my place while he sold his house. Ok. Several boxes full of nice records took up (some valuable) real estate in my basement.
Basically I never heard from him again. Heard he sold his house, but that was it. Other friends have been in occasional contact. I’d been hoping that with his records here maybe he’d show up one day. Of course not.
So...now...11 years later!...I need some money. And I’m cleaning out the basement, wanting those records out of there.
I could sell the records and at least make some money.
The question for the audience is: Do you do it?
The case for selling them seems relatively obvious. He stiffed me for many thousands of dollars that he never paid back. Had me store the records forever while he went AWOL. Clearly has zero intention of ever picking them up.Every arrow points towards "They Are Mine Now."
Except...I have a conscience. He never formally gave them to me.
So, would you try to track "John" down to ask if he wants his records back (and explain otherwise I’m going to sell them)?
Or would you just go ahead, assume ownership (and payback) and sell them?
Floor is yours.
124 responses Add your response
As mentioned I was curious about other people's take on a situation like this. I thought it would be a subject of interest, and clearly it was. Also, I was still not perfectly decided on exactly what I was going to do. People raised some issues I hadn't thought about. Reading other people's responses did ultimately help me process exactly what I chose to do.
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Would be nice to buy him a turntable and speakers, return his record collection and maybe it will magically cure him. It will bring back some good memories associated with music. |
Update:
To my astonishment he replied to my second email. (As I said, I kept things friendly and open). He replied tersely that he doesn’t listen to music anymore and to toss them. Sounds sad. I gather he’s still having some problems. (He generally won’t speak to any of our other friends either).
So I’m going to sell what I can and a friend who has gotten heavily back in to vinyl says he’ll take any leftovers.
Problem solved.
Thanks for all the responses. It was fascinating.
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I was given his purportedly current email address.
I sent him a friendly email asking if he wanted his records, and that he could pick them up if he'd like.
We'll see what happens. I'd actually prefer to give them back to him. For me the loan thing is water under the bridge. Not that I'd be lending him money again :-) But it doesn't help to dwell on that stuff and even very good people can get in to that kind of trouble. Apparently, talking to another friend who knew what was going on, his mental health issues were flaring up at the time of very high stress.
For me the best result would actually returningi the records and being at least on good terms with my old pal again, vs carrying spite or even having to get rid of the records. I don't know if he's going to respond, though. |
@prof Are you still sitting on your hands? It's time to Sell them all here, and promise us that you'll use the proceeds to buy a lot of alcohol. Cheers, Spencer |
What shape are they in, are they saleable? Many widows are getting rid of their husbands collections So the market could be glutted except for the prized stuff so you might have some work on your hands to go through everyone. Would this guy even have the money to ship them back to himself or rent a truck? After 11 years without them he's done with them and certainly not going to spend the money to get them. Hope you were able to bounce back financially from this unfortunate situation and the loss wasn’t too much. The sting of a lost friend who was not the person you thought he was might remain for a while. Never loan to a person with the thought you are definitely getting the money back. Always consider there’s a good chance it might turn out to be a gift you can afford. |
With 6,000 pristine LP's (1965 to today), and I still buy 100 LP's a year, so my collection does not become calcified. I have been trying to find a library to take the whole collection. Most are mint. I will even provide an endowment to care for them. There are very few endpoints for your's and my conundrum. The way people are discarding good collections, means our's will become more valuable. I'm 65 and have been trying to find a place where they will care for them as I have. Absolute Sound seems to be a good choice and there are a couple dealers in GOLDMINE that buy whole collections. Yet that is for selling them. Ebay and other sites are really too much work. I'd rather it stayed a collection as I bought them all mostly in the first week or release. I was not a DJ or on any companies mailing list, so I bought 98% of them new and took care of them obsessively. All across the board, physical media is shunned by libraries. I think that is folly. If you ever find a proper manner to keep your collection whole, please let me know - Steven Pettinga 317 251-7009 |
We haven't touched on the other side of the moral question. By allowing your friend to not pay back his loan and letting you hold onto his records for many years and then giving them back to him, you are encouraging this type of behavior. Is that something you want to do? Bad behavior that hurts innocent people is frequently encouraged in our society today. And guess what? We get more and more bad behavior. If there are no consequences for doing wrong, expect to see a lot more people doing wrong. |
I am a lawyer, Though in California. The law should be similar. You are in the wonderful world of “bailments”. When a party deposits property with another, an ailment is created. Look on any private parking ticket and it’ll say no bailment is created this is a license to park. That’s because there are special conditions in a bailment. You have the bailee and the bailor. Look up the obligations of both on Google. Chances are there is a time limit, or statute of limitations. After 11 years it may be way past, and may release you from any obligations to him. Check to make sure there is no notice requirement for you to tell him he needs to pick em up to start the statute of limitation running. Listening to Beethoven’s 3rd an 4 th while writing on my new vandersteen Quatro wood CT’s. Sound like I’m actually at the concert. Amazing accurate sound. Highly recommend. Good luck Jerry |
11 years ? That is past the statute of limitations in the US. Did you document the loan ? Did "John" sign a promissory note, or in any way provide a document to show that he borrowed money from you ? Did you create a storage agreement when he asked to store LPs in your basement ? I suspect the answer is no. Thus it is one word against another. I suspect he knew what he left behind, but also knew that he did not pay you from the proceeds of his home sale. If he was a collector of any degree, he KNEW exactly where those records were stored, and made a decision not to retrieve them so he would not be confronted by you asking for your money. Open the boxes and enjoy the LPs, then sell what you don't like/want. If you live in a good size metro area, you likely have local buyers that will pay you a fair price for individual LPs. |
what if you just find it and RETURN THE PLATES FOR FREE? - if the person who has not deceived you, then maybe the universe will appreciate it and somehow reward it later ... But if you are a non-believer, just contact the local mafia and these guys, for 50% of the amount, will find and take your debt ... music - listen to music yourself or give it to children for music lovers for free. (with this post you publicly admitted the fact of transferring property to you on bail ... in court it will be against you) |
Didn't your basement have a water issue at some point? I seem to remember it did. And didn't those records get moldy and you had to get rid of them due to health concerns? I remember that, too. "Sorry buddy, I don't have you records anymore. Had to get rid of them. Didn't want to get sick, you know?" |
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If it has not been mentioned, setup a discogs.com account, you can inventory the LP's and get sense of there worth. Some LP's can hold value, I know my collection has a fairly high value, if using the median price for sales history. You can list them at the median and they should sell over time. I would do this vs wholesale to a shop. Are these classical records? They are the worst for holding or increasing value, same with a lot of pop music stuff. Electronic can have some crazy good value, David Bowie box sets etc can be good too. Really depends on what you have and the condition. Discogs. The LP market is pretty hot still. |
I would track him down and send an email expressing your intention of selling the collection if you don't collect the payback on your loan within 30 days. Make a paper trail that spells out the situation. If he could burn you once, he is probably capable of anything, so make the statement in writing. Don't hesitate to sell if you don't get your money. Don't accept another excuse. Good luck! |
Sadly, the statute of limitations would now bar your claim against ex-friend, while his right of action against you for conversion would only accrue when you sell the records. However, you can argue -- depending on your state's law of abandoned property -- that the records became yours when he failed to collect them within a reasonable time. (I'll spare you the legal analysis from the intentional tort/quantum meruit viewpoints). But that's just the legal perspective. Ethically, you couldn't be blamed for selling the records, and I can think of no one, in or out of the legal profession, so churlish as to say you'd done wrong. |
46 years ago, I bought the lease to my loft of 41 years from a friend. He was moving to Europe. He had a fine art reproduction of the Ghent Altarpiece that he had framed in gold leaf himself. He didn’t want to take it with him and said if I liked it, I should keep it. So I did. He comes back from Europe last year and says he wants it back. 🙄 Some people. I still have it hanging over our bed, where it’s been for 41 years and where it is remaining. Besides, the wife loves it too. As for your records: don’t sell them, give them to me! 🤗😆😂 Seriously, in real estate there are laws where if you are using someone’s property and they say nothing after so many years, that property becomes yours. Full stop. |
@prof I applaud you for contacting your ex-friend and asking him if he wants the records back. If he replies that he does, and he wants you to deliver them, and he has no intention of paying you for your loan... leads back to my advice to seek legal counsel. BTW, the Canadian web page that was referenced earlier in the thread has some very specific protocols regarding the abandonment and disposition of personal property. These protocols are there for a legal reason. |
I own about 2500 LPs. Some guys here own more, some fewer. I own zero collectible 45s or 78s; mine are all 33 rpm long playing records. Some are more valuable than others, true. My only point was that the highest possible value of an LP collection such as mine, the amount one might recoup if one were to sell each LP at its max market value, compared to its bargain basement value, the amount one might realize if one sold the entire collection to a dealer at say $5 per LP, is not going to make much difference to an heir. The difference between the two valuations is not enough to change anyone's life style. We don't even know the number of LPs left by the deadbeat on the property of the OP, let alone their potential collector value as individual LPs. If they have been in a garage or an occasionally wet basement for 11 years, all bets are off. |
I didn’t notice anyone recommending disposal of the LPs as trash or gifting them, but perhaps I have not read the whole thread. In the US, it could work out OK to donate them to a charitable organization and take a tax deduction. I have no idea of the tax laws in Russia. Sure, the OP could go through the collection and keep for himself anything he likes. So far, after X years of storage on his property, it does not appear he has done that. Anything he does now is justified and better from his point of view than what went before. By the way, although I have not discussed the issue with my wife, I plan to suggest to her that she should sell my LPs to a bulk buyer, likely to be a dealer. Or donate them to a charity. She won’t need the money, and I cannot imagine her or our sons selling them piecemeal. I recently checked again the current auction finals on popsike.com for some of the records from my collection, for many Soul 45s from the 60s and 70s, purchased by me probably 15 years ago, the current prices are simply insane! I often see a typical $300-500 price tag per record when they are sold, here is one of them - this is what I call rare records. My point is that sometime there might be 1-5 records that cost more than entire collection! Do you think the dealers will tell you that ? :) P.S. I doubt that record collectors will tell a girlfriend (or wife) how much they paid for stuff they really want. And believe me they pay a lot for rare records. Prices go up every year, but at the end of the day there will be a dealer from the local shop (You die, We buy) with a typical offer of $5 per record for the entire collection and the wife will be like "yeah, fair price" :) |
