A pitch too High!

@mijostyn I figured yesterday and ordered these too. Thank you much for all your help. I am going to give the Anti-Skate that little further nudge too. Though the sound right now is much better that it has been in all my attempts. 

However, one more noob question is, when do I realise that I need these screws? Is there something that will not sit well?

@mijostyn That deed has already been done by @chakster . I bought the HiFi News Test LP. I even put up the test here. My Clearaudio was quite the failure on that. So we moved to 'allowing the cart to float towards the spindle' test.

So yeah I have that. I'll test for when I get The Voice and put it on the SME 12A.

Yes, I do mean more trebly, sharper than when compared to the same song playing from a digital source. Along with the voice, everything sounds a little sharper than the digital source. The guy who fixed the new cartridge just came back with the same response as yours, he thought I should let it run for 70 hours before assuming the cartridge is not compatible. 

I am running the record at its correct RPM so the pitch change should not occur.

To my naked eye, the tonearm does not seem to be sloping down at all.

Can guys suggest a good test LP and gear I could personally use to get this working properly?

I have given up on the idea of doing it myself, I am just not up to it. Lets leave it there. 

I am using a Boulder 508 Phonostage. And yes I did check that the tonearm is parallel to the record. The gentleman who brought up the VTF also checked the 2 point alignment and adjusted the azimuth (if that's what it's called. On the anti-skating bit, Clearaudio advises not to mess with it as it comes adjusted from the factory.

When the VTF was set to 1.5g, one noticed that just before hitting the record, the tonearm would move back a tiny bit before hitting the record. It was an odd movement and it was deduced by the fellow who set it up as an issue with the VTF and he increased it to 2g. That sorted the tiny backwards movement. He also checked everything else after that and found it to be working fine. We heard a Leonard Cohen record and the bass that had disappeared came back up and the music sounded fine. Till two days later I put in the first pressing of Aretha Franklin's Amazing Grace, and it sounded sharper than I remembered her voice.   

@chakster Thank you for this

@mijostyn You are absolutely correct, he set the Grado tracking force to 1.5g, the first time he did it. He did not touch the anti-skating because Clearaudio recommends we do not. I think I have read somewhere that it is set to medium and works for 2g VTF. 

It sounds thin because the suspension is compressed under the two grams

 Can you elaborate on this? I did not understand this.

Back off on the tracking force to 1.5 grams and lighten the antiskating...

I know it's right below the turntable but no clue which side to turn to increase or decrease. A little hesitant to do it because I might mess it up.

@rauliruegas I own about 200 LPs and I don’t think because Grado is an an entry level cartridge and Satisfy a beginners’ tonearm, I am facing these problems. I just want my rig to give the reproduction it should. You have read my situation incompetently.

As for knowledge,  everybody starts somewhere and there’s plenty to be had on the interwebs. But I don’t see myself setting up a system, but I’ll surely go for a significantly better turntable soon. In the meantime, I think the one I have is good enough to understand more about analogue. 

@mijostyn I know how to set VTF, I even have the scale. Where it gets a little complicated for me is the anti-skating adjustment on a Clearaudio Concept turntable. Unlike say an SME tonearm where it is a knob within the contraption, antiskating in Concept is under the turntable which if I am not mistaken requires an allen key to adjust. And it does not have numbers and I don't know which side to turn it. Just scared I'll screw it up. And Clearaudio does not recomend anyone other than their authorised folks mess with this. I am reading up on VTA and have even ordered the HiFi news test LP.

Thank you for explaining cartridge suspension.

@sandstone Just downloaded the app. Going to use it soon.

Thank you all for the help. I am starting on it, to the extent I can.

You may well be hearing that resonance as brightness- when I've used similar Grados, I've always had to load them to get the brightness gone.

@atmasphere what do you mean by 'load' them? The link you gave me is way beyond what I can comprehend.

@mijostyn I did some of the things you asked me to do. I decreased the tonearm height because I felt it was sloping down towards the cartridge end when it was placed on the LP. I got the VTF to 1.5g and the arm would ride back, similar on 1.8 and 2g. Then I tried it with the tonearm at various different positions, till I lost track of whether I was increasing or decreasing from the original mark.  I finally reached a height with the tonearm where the tonearm would not retrace out of the LP. I then checked to see if the tonearm was parallel to the record when the stylus was touching the record. It was parallel and I played with VTF till I locked it at 2g where the cartridge would not retrace out of the LP. Also once the last track got over, the tonearm moved towards the spindle and stayed at the run-out area. However, the sound did not change much, Leonard Cohen - Live in London was way more bass-ier on Roon through the digital output of Boulder 866.

On the anti-skate, my sense is that Clearaudio Concept is set for 2g VTF as the original cartridge MM V2 needed a VTF of 2 -2.2g. I am thinking maybe either the Grado needs more running in or maybe I don't like the sound. Would a Sumiko MP200 work better?

I am enclosing some pics of stuff I did, trying to rectify the turntable sound. The RPM seems to be higher.

http://www.imagebam.com/view/ME4RE9N
https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME4RE9S
https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME4RE9T

The image below has the anti-skating explanation for Clearaudion Concept. Does turning towards the green arrow mean lesser anti-skate?

https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME4REUFhttp://

How many turns approximately to reach adequate anti-skate for 1.5g? If someone has done this before on this machine, please do let me know. Because clearly, 2g VTF is not working soundwise.

@mijostyn I’ll probably send the RPM readings to Clearaudio. And see what they have to say. I am going to try the anti-skate tomorrow, if I get some direction on this. Would Sumiko MP 200 work? It has a prescribed VTF between 1.5 to 2g.

My table has adjustable speed.

What do you mean by that? You mean options of 33, 45 and 78? My turntable has that too. How do I correct the RPM?

@chakster Of course I don’t know what i am doing. But I am trying to learn as I go along. Those who are explaining things to me in a simple fashion are helping me get there, and i am truly grateful. I have gone through many videos and that’s probably why i am doing stuff I never imagined I would. You too should try doing things you don’t know anything about might just make you a little more helpful. The reason I am thinking of another cartridge like Nagaoka MP200 is because @mijostyn suggested maybe I should get something with 2g VTF. This could be the alternative to decreasing anti-skate.

And probably the right word is scale and not pitch?

@sandstone Thank you for letting me know, tomorrow I’ll check out the RPM adjustment screws. Since you are familiar with this turntable could you respond to my query:

The image below has the anti-skating explanation for Clearaudion Concept. Does turning towards the green arrow mean lesser anti-skate?

https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME4REUFhttp://

How many turns approximately to reach adequate anti-skate for 1.5g? If someone has done this before on this machine, please do let me know. Because clearly, 2g VTF is not working soundwise.

@sandstone So I managed to fiddle with the RPM adjustments at the back of the turntable. I got it as close as I could to 33.33 and 45. Images below:

https://imgbox.com/opqkwN6Thttp://
https://imgbox.com/xnAeQyBU

This has drastically changed the sound for the better, the base is back in the voices and otherwise. Aretha Franklin does not high pitched at all. The sound to me is swell. Thank you much for the help.

@chakster Should I still be fiddling with Anti-Skid? The cartridge/tonearm is not retracting or moving backwards at all. It seems fine at 2g. Though if I make it 1.5g, I probably will have to mess with the Anti-Skid.

Is there anything more I need to do? I am pretty happy with the sound but then is there something I need to check so my records don’t get damaged?

Also, I am using ST50 to clean the stylus.

@atmasphere The PS Audio link explains it very well especially for the scientifically uninitiated. Thank you for that. However, how does one know this to be the issue and how do I correct it on my phono stage? I don't even know if I have a function like that. There is of course the choice of MM and MC, and I have opted for MM.

@mijostyn While what you sounds absolutely correct, the MM V2 cartridge before I damaged it was working fine, or at least I thought so. This pitch issue started when the Grado came in. However, what explains the change of pitch after RPM adjustments? Because the VTF is still 2g. Also, can you suggest some cartridges which would go with my system, please? Below are the RPM links that weren't showing up earlier.

https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME4SPVG
https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME4SPVI

@rauliruegas Can you elaborate on the MI cartridge? Why is this, then, working with my MM turntable?

 @chakster Got what you are saying. Asking you or anyone familiar with Clearaudio Concept anti-skating, if the thick black mark on the larger circular mound, below the red mark, is anti-skating zero. Please check the image in the link:

https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME4SPVK

The red mark is anti-skating that is factory set up. 

@dalims4 Yes I read this post a while back. I have even ordered a Clearaudio Smart Scale which I think is made of cardboard. I also understand that he wants me to add 1.2g to the 1.5g stated by Grado for Blue before I adjust the anti-skate. However, what is confusing the ’F’ out of me is how to operate the anti-skate button. I cannot figure out what ’Zero’ AS is on the contraption under the turntable. Since I don’t know the start point, everything else is difficult, hence, I am not messing with it.

@noromance It is certainly one of the issues and correcting the RPM seems to have corrected that issue. However, I spent around 3 hours last night listening to records. On one song towards the end of the record, in a Norah Jones album, I felt I heard sibilance. On other records, it seemed fine. Don’t know if I can even identify sibilance correctly.

@chakster The complication does not end with the fact that the AS is under the turntable and there are no correct markings, to begin with. Apparently, the AS instructions in the manual are correct if you look at it as if you are looking through a transparent platter, which basically means whatever the instruction manual suggests, counter and clockwise are exactly the opposite in practice. This is according to Musical Surrounding, Clearaudio distributor in USA. Difficult to know how many turns of the screw takes you where.

@sandstone I am not sure if there is a black Verify arm and I think I remember checking with the distributor about the arm, and they told me it’s a black Satisfy, which is out of production now. But not sure. If you look at the Verify manual, the AS contraption is not exactly the same.

And yes you are right, there is more than enough good guidance for me to rectify things. I have done so in some places too, however, my issue is not with the theory of it all, I get it now; thanks to all of you. It is the specific AS on this damn turntable. I don’t know the start point on it. If I go by the Verify manual, the black mark is AS for 2.4g VTF. This means, my AS is off currently. If you look at the mark on the screw, it is not aligned to the black mark on the circular post.

https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME4SPVK

@rauliruegas I understood mate I do not have load impedance issues because I have a great phono stage but I have to beg your pardon as I don’t understand much of what you write. As is my English is not very fluent, being an Indian, yours does not help either. But I know you have noble intent.

If sometime soon I do not understand how to operate the AS on this turntable, I am going to junk it and go for an SME 6 Classic or 12A. It is a company owned by Indians, so I can expect easy service as I’ll buy straight from the company.

I just came across this:

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/needle-sliding-across-my-records.414567/

In the relevant post, this is what the OP says about Clearaudio AS:

Thanks to all for your input to this problem. Turns out my VTF was way on the light side.

Here is how it happened. While waiting for this TT on backorder I read a lot of reviews. One reviewer noted that the tracking force seemed a bit on the heavy side once he started to serious listen after the break in period. Sure enough he was right and he made an adjustment. Musical Surroundings also suggests that VTF be checked due to shipping in a youtube video on how to set up this table.

As it turns out, my factory settings were probably absolutely accurate. Even though the reading I was getting was 3 grams instead of 2. But here is the problem and where I knew just enough to be dangerous. The tonearm has a magnetic bearing and therefore the measurement needs to be taken on the side of the platter rather than on the platter. There is not much room there and it can be tricky. You have to put a record on the platter and then build up some material on the side so that when you put the scale on the material it will be even with the record and then weigh the tracking force. Turns out 2 grams where this tonearm needs to be measured is basically a reading of 3 grams on the platter. So I was running this thing about a gram light.

Unbelievable. So right now it is tracking better, no more skating off the record when cueing a record, detail is enhanced and bass is more pronounced. I am now in a much better mood. Oh, and surface noise on older records is much less noticeable.

And here is the reason it was happening with some records and not with others, of course I am referring to the tonearm falling off the record. Lighter records is where it was occurring more. My heavier 180 gram records were much less effected.

If I go by this, then what I have measured to be 2, would actually be lesser than 1.5 or 1.5. Keeps getting crazier!!!

This is the response I got from Stefan of Clearaudio:

Here is how I recommend to proceed to completely re-set the anti-skating position of the magnetic bearing tonearm (“0”):

-             Demount the cartridge

-             Adjust the counterweight so, that the tonearm “floats” while not in rest position

-             Now twist the anti-skating-screw to get the position of the headshell of the tonearm

                right above the edge of the platter (where the lead-in groove would be)

-             You now can mark the position of the anti-skating-screw by drawing a line with a pen

                from screw head towards tonearm foot

-              Now then there’s a simple rule, that unfortunately is valid for Clearaudio Concept MM/MC

                cartridges only: twist the anti-skating screw 3 times anticlockwise if you want to mount the

                clearaudio Concept MM/any other MM V2 cartridge and 4 times if you want to mount the Clearaudio Concept

                MC cartridge

-             finally mount your cartridge again and check the tracking force

 

Please note this is a quick guide for the standard clearaudio cartridges.

 

If you want to be more precise just use the “traditional way”: get a testrecord (like clearaudio trackability test record) and set anti-skating force by checking the tracking with oscilloscope (or listen to the test signals via headphone/the speakers, which is less precise).  There is no rule of thumb for 3rd party cartridges, please understand.

@mijostyn Thanks for the recommendation of cartridges. Next month I am planning to pull the trigger on SME 12A. Maybe I'll use the Goldring 1042 with that.

I am going to take care of the Concept VTF and AS on Sunday. Hopefully I'll get it right.

@mijostyn So I did as suggested. It took counterclockwise two turns and one-fourth to reach the correct AS for 1.5g. Less was making the tonearm go out of the record and more made it travel towards the spindle. I might have damaged the record too as I don't have a blank record. However, while the cartridge tracked fine, I found that there was discomforting distortion on highs. The same song through Roon played pleasantly well. I again checked the RPM, it was very close to 33.33. The VTF was 1.5 and thereabouts. I did not mess with it further and left it as is. What do I need to do to correct this distortion on highs?

@chakster I am unable to figure the distributor for Technics in India. The problem with the dealers and distributors here is they seldom are able to provide quality after-sales. They just about sell the turntable, they have no clue about things we are discussing here. One of the big reasons I have opted for SME is because the guys who sell it here are also the owners of SME. It'll help in getting help on turntable issues.

@mijostyn I could hear it coming out of both left and right!

@mijostyn I bought myself a Clearaudio Smart Gauge, which worked perfectly. I measured a VTF of 1.5 and one turn counterclockwise Anti-skate from its original 2.4g position. Everything sounds sweet, with no distortion on highs. I don’t think it’s a good idea to measure Concept VTF with any other measuring scale.

@atmasphere @rauliruegas @noromance @sandstone @russ69 @chakster @cleeds @teo_audio @gakerty @dalims4 @sandthemall and everybody else:

Thank you for the help; I truly appreciate it.

https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME52EFH

https://www.imagebam.com/view/ME52EFN

@mijostyn I doubt it. It reads the 5gm weight perfectly. I think there's a difference in the height it measures it at.

@atmasphere What should one look for?

@atmasphere @chakster Why do you guys want me to buy a new Grado stylus. Are you assuming the stylus may be damaged? A few bounces across a record can damage a stylus is it. ? Thought it was made of tougher stuff. Though sound wise I don't have an issue right now. I think a few more records down I'll get a fairer idea.

 

@goofyfoot adjusting the tonearm was one of the first things I had done. Getting it parallel to the record. 

@atmasphere No worries. Thank you for your help.

 

@goofyfoot This gets a little confusing as somewhere above in this thread, somebody suggested I keep the counter-weight end 7-9mm above the cartridge. This link was given to me as advice https://www.vandenhul.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Phono_FAQ.pdf

Though, I have still kept the tonearm parallel to the record when the stylus is hitting the record.

Once I got the HiFi News test record, I did everything all over again before I played the Hifi news record. Please do let me know what you guys feel.

Turntable Balance:

https://imgur.com/39waY4N

Test done with the paper disc that comes with the HiFi news record. To get this right, I had to unscrew the cartridge a little and adjust.

https://imgur.com/hZt0lwi. (Shows alignment with the tonearm)
https://imgur.com/c0rrdZQ 
https://imgur.com/oWjDYaf 

Test done with Mofi Geo Disc:

https://imgur.com/mmaSH43  (Shows alignment with the tonearm)  
https://imgur.com/jpSpwNE 
https://imgur.com/NqRSqtf 
https://imgur.com/4gfHtIg

@chakster I am pasting YouTube links of the results of the test record, let me know what you feel as this came highly recommended by you:

Side 1 | Band 6: https://youtu.be/3xVdC9zIHhA

Side 1 | Band 7: https://youtu.be/sG-SQGZz44w

Side 1 | Band 8: https://youtu.be/n0pXWX43gZA

Side 1 | Band 9: https://youtu.be/XyP5DFrpREo

Side 2 | Band 2: https://youtu.be/655x0JJvnII

Side 2 | Band 3: https://youtu.be/P5Yh89r5Yjc

Side 2 | Band 4: https://youtu.be/-8A6YkmBT_E

I felt everything was kosher, but then you are the experts.

@mijostyn if you could look at the tests I have conducted after getting the HiFi News test record. Please do let me know if something is not right.

 

The video links may not be working above so here they are again:

Side 1 | Band 6:

 

Side 1 | Band 7: 

 

Side 1 | Band 8: 

 

Side 1 | Band 9: 

 

Side 2 | Band 2: 

 

Side 2 | Band 3: 

 

Side 2 | Band 4: 

 

@mijostyn Even I cannot tell, as the distortion seems to come from both the speakers. I am finding it hard to tell the difference. By the ‘slow drift test’ you mean the tone arm drifting towards the spindle after the track is over? Well that happens perfectly well currently.

@mijostyn I think I understand you. I'll record and put it up here soon.

@goofyfoot How do you use the laser disc to test anti-skate? Is there a video or something out there? I could not find any.

@mijostyn Is this what you are talking about? I have done the test twice in the video:

 

@mijostyn I just got Joni Mitchell - Live at Carnegie Hall, there is a blank side on the third record. I'll use that. Just reconfirming, since so many things are being said, do I put down the stylus on a rotating blank record at the centre or at the assumed run-out area? And then watch it drift slowly towards the spindle?

For the laserdisc method, I found a video of an Indian guy, he used a CD. Though I don't have a blank disk, can I use one like this?: 

 

Yes! Exactly but in your video the arm is drifting too fast towards the spindle so you want to add more antiskate. I also must add that your turntable must be level, exactly level. 

 

@mijostyn I have centred as much as I could. Please look at the pic below and let me know if there's an issue with TT balance:

I have also done a test on a blank record:

 

 

And this is what Joni Mitchell sounds like currently on my system:

 

 

@mijostyn There is no divot in the record. Those are prints and they are smooth. However, I’ll try again bringing it closer to the spindle, before the record dips. Yes, I did increase the anti-skate considerably from where I was previously; About 2 and a half rotations clockwise from the previous point.

@mijostyn I have done all measurements again. For some strange reason, when I check the VTF, the value from the last time has changed, so I have to do it all over again. It’s anti-skate for 1.5g VTF that I have done. This is the slowest the arm is moving in, on the runout area of a recorded LP and the supposed runout area of a blank record. I made shifts in mm this time, so if I make it even slightly lesser the arm starts moving in faster than what you’ll see in the video. And if I take it 1 or 2mm more, the arm hovers a little at the same point for a little while and then moves in towards the spindle.

Runout Area:

 

Blank Record

 

@mijostyn I did this but it was really tough again. This turntable really sucks. Every time I get near right AS, the VTF would go off and vice versa. Finally, I am on 1.5g VTF, where this seems to be the best AS. An mm less of AS makes the tonearm travel faster; an mm more makes the tonearm linger and sometimes move in towards the spindle or sometimes move out. Basically it becomes very erratic.

 

Another matter i wanted to take advice on was the cartridge for SME12A. I have a friend coming in from New York and I wanted to make a purchase for some time to come. I was looking at Ortofon Windfeld TI but it is very expensive on US websites. On Analogue Seduction, UK, it will cost me £2850, inclusive of VAT and shipping to London. This is almost $1330 more than say the cost on the Cable Company website.

What would be an equivalent cartridge I could get from the US?

 

For the current turntable I’ll probably get a Grado 8MZ or TLZ stylus, to put in the current cartridge as advised by @Chakster

 

@mijostyn I am assuming you are still not satisfied with the AS of my turntable. I'll now fix it once I get the new stylus in hand.

Also, thank you for the exhaustive list of cartridges for the 12A. I'll look into these.

@mijostyn Some of the carts like Paua won't work well with my phono stage Boulder 508. Dynavector TKR seems to be on the edge of compliance, don't know whether I should go for it.

However, the Lyra Kleos as I have been told would be a great pick for both the TT as well as Boulder 508. Just wanted your opinion on Hana Umami Red. Will probably pick one them. 

@lewm Impedence on the Boulder is fixed at 100 ohms and Paula loads at 470.

@mijostyn I could not figure the compliance of The Voice to 309. Is it compliant? Any reason you would prefer the Kleos over Hana? Hana seems to get glowing reviews on the interwebs. I’ll wait for your response and then pull the plug. Though, Soundsmith are generally not available for immediate order.

@mijostyn I went for the Voice. I got one at Absolute Sound, they told me its prefectly compatible to my tonearm as well as the 508 in MM. It is mid compliance. Where do I order the screws.