@millercarbon
Using an online tone generator I can hear and feel sound down to under 20hz in my listening area, how coherent that is is another matter. But looking at sound generation, no driver moves anywhere near the distances you describe in generating that, so I think you mean distance time delay, and not pressure level peaks. After all, a grand piano’s low A string is less than 8’ long, and to create that tone only requires it to travel a fraction of an inch.
As far as upper limits I will only consider third level harmonics, as that is what the 20khz is for, not actual notes while the energy above that is measurable, most of us cannot hear it, although I think many of us listen with our sense of touch as well, so I'm sure we can feel it.
To @everyoneelse;
It would seem treble is fair game as well. And I am interested in all aspects of musical sound generation/reproduction so to use an upright bass as an example, I want to hear the musicians fingers sliding up and down the strings while playing it; which can go very high up the frequency range, as well as the woods resonance in an acoustic version, and the lower harmonics that accompany the center of the note.
I guess I was assuming that we would be talking about sitting in your room listening measurements/experience and not a speaker in vitro, so no Anechoic chambers allowed.
I just wonder what people find acceptable, since I know many people have very expensive, to me, systems that can barely manage 40hz, -0db down.
Unfortunately Vandertones is an .exe, and so not available for the Mac. As I’ve mentioned, I use an online signal generation site. But have bought a decent portable recorder, and am now looking for opportunities to record pure notes of individual instruments, and I have a friend who is the department head in choral studies at a local university, so am going to see if I can wrangle some time in their concert hall to record the piano, which is already there.
That will be an interesting database to make available to all who might want to add to, or use the file from. Perhaps there is already a start out there? |
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Doing the math.
Sound travels about 1100 feet/second at sea level, and for you nitpickers, at 50% humidity and 72 degrees. A cycle of 25hz happens, surprise, 25 times a second.
Divide 1,100 by 25 = 40 ft. A 25hz tone is 40’ long, but it happens 25 times a second, so that frequency sustained for 1 second travels 1,100 feet. While 10khz travels 0.11 feet per second.
So, if you are 1,100 feet from the point source of sound you may notice the Doppler shift in tone. But at normal listening distances? Nah.
Don’t even think about thinking about this if you’re having a drink and listening to your system this evening, because the phase shift between those lows and highs, of say 10khz is dizzying!
😂
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Thanks for the recommendation MotzartFan.
Regna Schirmers' 2000 recording of Schnirrke's 3 sonatas ordered. |
An open baffle recipe.
Woofer: AE 15” dipole., larger or smaller depending on room size.
Midrange: SEAS Exotic X1-08, F8, 8 ohm, 8" Full Range Driver
Tweeter: Mundorf AMT27D1.1 Dipole Air Motion Tweeter
About $5k, just for the drivers. |
@motzartfan
I would have one or the other, not both woofers. Speakers are energy conversion devices, to get lower bass with a smaller diaphragm it has to travel a greater distance, and that can only be tamed with a driver like GR Researches 12” speaker plate amp combos that are servo controlled.
I'd prefer to have a 15” that travel such a short distance, about ⅓, to create the same note at a given SPL, and so don’t need the servo.
The Golden Days of audio tell us that if you use an the exponential horn as a 2-D go-by diagram, you can set your tweeter at the throat, select your woofer size, and then use the…
Oh, what the hell was I talking about anyway?!
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I like feeling my music, and my system is used for home theater as well, so a solid 25hz satisfies me. But my pair of KEF R 400 b's only go comfortably to 28, so for now that’s it.
Oddly enough, using some furniture, not to my wife’s liking, to fashion a horn, really increases the volume and decreases the distortion. |
@realworldaudio
Yes, if you go back to the beginning horns were necessary to reproduce bass because the amps only had so much power, so a good full range can get you most of the way there with a folded horn box, or a BAB.
I currently have 3 sets of Fostex laying around waiting for cabinets, 4, 6, and 8 inches, two Sigma and a pair of Fostex FE206NV 8"ers. |
@daledeee1
An excellent response!
Exactly on point to the question I thought I was asking. Something I can enter into a spread sheet. |
@oldhvymec
Of course you are mostly right, but why be so confrontational? People don’t listen when you do that, and if you have info people should know, you frustrate them and yourself by not conveying it in a pleasant manner.
I can hear 16hz. My subs can’t play that frequency in a musical context, but they can make that tone as a singular function. Great speakers are made to reproduce sound as recorded and experienced, so they are reproduction devices; and designers that care expect their clients to care as well, so assume those who purchase their product will attempt to provide an environment conducive to them functioning properly. Let us assume that each of us is making their best effort to do that.
I'm retired, so limit my spending cause I hope it's a long ways till I'm dead, and so may need a spare $20k here and there for those unforeseen emergencies that happen to old people who's parents were so thoughtless as to have not made themselves wealthy so I could have money to burn. I envy those who's parents were.
Budget wise I can have a $50k system or a $50k room to listen to it, but not both, so I, like all of us, have to determine my best options, and build my system according to a plan. I think we should all be reasonable and assume we are all like minded in that, and be courteous to one and other in that regard; there is something like that in the forum guidelines.
Several people have mentioned how few notes actually are played in a piece of music below 32hz, and as someone who listens to just about everything, I would have to agree with them that is a good standard to be considered full range. But a Klipsh Heresy only goes down to about 48hz, but does so brilliantly as the woofer goes up to 400hz, that gives it good dynamic range balance, and is that speakers best attribute. (Please, no corrections, those figures are approx off the top of my head, and those are not the point I'm making about that speaker.)
So, that being said, what is your opinion on what defines a full range speaker, hz wise? What is the limit at which you would say, "That's required for my average listening needs, and after that I will need a sub?
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@ivan_nosnibor
I agree that a balance should be struck between the room and the system. Most people don’t leave enough room in their budget for the room adjustments.
But those can be had in various manners, some even spouse friendly. Bookshelves with books in them are as effective as a custom made sound diffusion panel that applies to a wall. Same with fiber arts, which when you think about it makes more sense since those can be an investment; oriental rugs, tapestries and whatnot.
What I wonder about is why people will buy $1,000 worth of sound treatment items, but not use the same thing the Met uses; heavy velvet drapes. Put those over your windows and you are a long way towards the finishing line. Cover your back wall with them and eliminate almost all standing waves. Heck, even lined linen will do a remarkably good job. I use all three, and it makes my wife happy and it fixes my room.
But I would like to see an irregular sheet size panel for ceilings produced at no more than 4-6” tall that tastefully could be applied to the entire ceiling as an architectural enhancement, and give me the feeling of a 16’ ceiling.
Enough digression. |
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@douglas_schroeder @millercarbon
I agree with your brief assessment, as well as Miller Carbon's most recent comment, as I think they are parts of the generalized conclusion we can draw that is: We don’t just hear with our ears, we hear with our bodies. Remember Bone Phones?
I wasn't really aware of that on the upper range, until this post and responses; how else can we explain the effect that truly full range sound reproduction is obvious, and yet inexplicable? I can’t hear much past 12khz anymore, but there must be something I am getting from that range because when I limit a speakers output to that frequency I can't hear it, but I feel there is something wrong.
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I have my full range for the moment, thanks. What I'm wondering is what you define that as, and why, and speaker mentions are optional.
In opposition to speaker manufacturers saying anything below 60hz, depending on manufacturer, can be full range. Looking for personal statements so that we can see what people think that is.
When I was younger, the first full Range speakers I heard were K-Horns, and after that I started to realize that a lot of floor standing full range speakers were just really large bookshelf speakers… |
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I think the the 20's are the domain of plate amps. Some manufacturers are now including them in their full range speakers to drive the big woofers.
Something I have seen that seems like a good idea is a built in high pass filter on a preamp. This is something that should be a given, as all that comes from passing tones lower than your speakers can reproduce is distortion, and wasted power. What's the point of your amp receiving that info and wasting energy trying to reproduce it if your speaker can’t reproduce it? I think the Parasound Halo has that, although some people may frown on that as being marginally worthy of being lumped in with audiophile equipment. But I’m more like Steve Gutenberg and Herb Richert in my inclusiveness of trying to find a decent system for people that can only afford say a grand on their system.
But I digress… |
Full range is a quadratic equation. If your mids and tweets are 100 watts, your subs have to have 800 watts and four times the surface area of the mid’s.
And this is an area where class D amps don’t cut it, in my experience; so double that to 1600 watts RMS for 20- 80 hz. |
@motzartfan
It’s fairly simple in the end, the elusive balanced tone.
Driver relationship and harmonic fidelity are more dependent on surface area than ability to reproduce a particular tone at a geometric relationship to surface area.
Your sub surface area and your woofers relative relationship are more important than your subs ability to reproduce it’s lowest coherent frequency.
In order to couple the two you should consider the Golden Ratio math equivalency relationship to produce natural lower extension to the main speakers.
Buying a bigger sub, surface area wise, with a lower power amp, and having to throttle it back is preferable to a smaller driver size with a bigger amp; all punch and no depth.
All drivers have unbelievable turbulence in the cone area, and smaller drivers magnify that by needing a greater X-max to reproduce a particular tone. Ideally, a 10” woofer should have a 20.1” sub to mathematically couple, sans room effects.
I’m settling for 18” short throw paper cone, extremely light and ridged, right now in my studio. And at about ⅓ power it feels perfect. |
@oldhvymech We have been talking about the multi sensory experience of listening to music; aural and tactile. The speaker, to reproduce, or should I say convey, the live experience. An aural and external exciter and a, oh what’s the word I’m looking for??? Ah, blunt force trauma on the low end and a way to, "cook?" your skin on the high end? 😉 https://www.physicscentral.com/explore/poster-coffee.cfm |
The Floyd were the first band to introduce me to heavy deep bass overtones, subsonic vibrations and the like. I love that part of music, and a fair part of my collection of music reflects that. |
@mozartfan
Yes, I'm thinking of stripping my system down to some killer headphones and some bass shakers mounted in my listening chair. 😉
All kidding, we’ll most, aside, I have tried listening to my headphones and subs in my studio, an interesting experience. |
OHM,
People often have to check my pulse to see if I’m still alive, I'm so laid back…
LMAO!
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My subs are a pair of two subs in opposition boxes, an attempt to correct drivers out of position without servos. KEF R 400B’s.
They say 10”, but I don’t think they are that, they certainly don’t measure that. They are completely room position dependent, more than most, designed to be placed on two different walls with the drivers 90 degrees to the wall. Properly placed, they are quite the performers.
They are going out to my studio in the future and will be replaced with either Rythmik’s or REL’s. They don’t have to be large, just precise in the house.
The KEF’s will give me all the slam I need, dare I say physical abuse? In my studio which is a smaller room, detached from the house.
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FYI.
All sounds made by musicians are notes in this post. Rimshots to tapping on a sound board to clapping hands. If it's part of the artists repertoire, it should be reproduced as a coherent whole.
Oh yeah, even saws and wash tubs… |
This link has a good visual along with brief bit well rounded explanation. You’ll notice that the instruments listed are set above a grand piano keyboard for reference. I'm inclined, given the money I spend on my equipment, to want to hear all of the notes played so that I can feel the artists full expression of the piece they are playing. An aside: You didn’t need subs for Rock until the Synth came along. But then you didn’t need 32hz until the Hammond B-3 became a regular in Rock, and before that 40hz was enough. https://www.psbspeakers.com/the-frequencies-of-music/ |
I’ve been researching room treatment's and was going to start a separate thread with a fair amount of worthwhile links I’ve found. |
I am amazed at how far off track this post has wandered. What, on the low end, defines a "full range" speaker to you; 20-60 hz? Lower or higher than that, that’s ok to say too.
Where do you define a full range speaker for yourself? Of course top end is ok too, if you want, but that is much easier to achieve. How you get there is up to you, and not really important to the original post, because thats where the quibbling starts.
Mine is 28 hz, 0db down at my preferred listening level. So, very few speakers can lay claim to being full range if that is true to me, and right now I need a sub. So, i consider all of my speakers wide range, but not full range. |
@myjostyn
I am not looking for a solution, I can build bass horns that go down to 20 hz, and will shake my family room off of my house. How to get there is not the question, it is:
What do you consider full range as a definition of a speaker catagory?
Because it is term that is used without any definition of what the term means. As far as I can see it's just a marketing term.
I'd just like to find out what people consider that to be, so we can establish some sort of credible definition. |
Yes. Suppose I framed it differently. Have you ever had bookshelf or stand mount speakers that you consider full range? If you spend enough, of course you can buy full range speakers. But some decent ones can be had for under $3k The term full range speakers is not the same as full range drivers, which is a separate category. I failed to make that clear in the beginning. One definition from the web, of which there are many: "The term “Full-Range” connotes the speaker that covers the entire range of the human voice. Most full-range speakers have a low frequency of around 60-70 Hz. Larger units with 15” drivers will reach low frequencies, while those of 10” LF drivers or less will roll off closer to 100 Hz." Here is one example of a dictionary of audiophile terms, I’ll look for others. https://www.moon-audio.com/audiophile-terms-guide#F |
I have no control over what people do with their listening rooms, so that point is moot to me. The sordid details of their listening room are theirs alone to solve.
This is strictly asking people that reply to the post to make a statement as to what hz on the lower end makes a speaker, not a particular driver, but the finished product, full range to them.
My number used to be 40 hz, now it is 32 hz. Whether I add a sub or not is up to me, and not relevant to the question. |
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@mortzartfan
How many W18's?
Active or passive XO? |
@mozartfan,
Frankly I think a line array of the David Lewis' is all you would need. When you have one speaker that is that accurate and lushly pleasant sounding it is only a matter of having enough of them to fill in the bottom end.
Surface area wise 10 of them would equal a 12” woofer, but I think that may be overkill as they have adequate bass at the volume you are playing them.
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A new pair of what I consider to be "Full Range" speakers is now in my system.
Zu Omen Def MKII's. Down to 38 hz in my room, and 30 hz 3db down. This puts me on the cusp of not needing a sub, and whether I will bother with one remains to be seen, only time will tell. Well that and adding my Loki into the chain. If that fills out the bottom when needed, then I'll buy a Lokius from Schiit.
But first I'll have to try a high current amp with them, before messing with their sonic signature. My Benchmark is amazingly transparent and more than enough power for these, and a good bass drum kick is a punch in the chest, and not just in the eardrum.
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Very nice.
I like Seas drivers as well, but also Eton Symphony’s, and Scan Speak Revelators. |
@mijostyn
I agree. 40 Hz seems like a reasonable number for bass. And subs will always be needed to dig into the 20's. There are speakers that can go into the 20’s, but they are few and far between; and always rather large.
In a perfect world we would all be blessed with 14’x36’x12’ listening room, minimum, and the funds to fill that with our equipment. But until that day arrives I will have to be satisfied with trying to achieve that sound in a smaller room. |
