Turntable chassis, motor drive (idler, direct, belt), bearing, platter, armboard, tonearm, headshell and cartridge make an analogue playback system - they are a unity and do influence each other. Looking on separated or single parts or combinations of parts will not help in the end to improve the overall capability of the system.
Maybe the importance of different plinth designs was a little overrated in recent developments using idlers or DDs and putting them into plinths of slate, special wood or other material. Many TT-designers did a good living by doing so. I do understand that audiophiles are getting a little tired of the plinth approach and switch to the other extreme. Focusing mainly on
tonearms and cartridges might be another misleading direction. Indeed we should concentrate on geometry, isolation where needed, careful installation and the quality and flexibility of armboards used.
Micro Seiki uses armboards made of brass which are very rigid and do enable the user to match all requirements in terms of geometry. Other brands of today have copied this philosophy - this is fine! But how many audiophiles are stuck in geometry problems when it comes to mounting a new tonearm. Sometimes one has has to build or order extra armboards
which are insufficiant.
A system should stay stable, free floating armboards bear risks of instable condition, especially when they are not real heavy weights or not placed on a special position on a special platform. |
Dear Raul, may I invite you to Munich. If you listen to a real Master Tape (very well recorded) played back by a Studer C37 and you do not change your opinion on TAPES you can select any item from my collection and take it home. Is this a word?
all the nice HiRez Digital recordings presented at CES 2011 sounded excellent but they are missing the warmth and the deep musicality of a Master Tape.
|
Dear Raul,
I will wait for you at the airport from Monday on.
Is it true that you are selling your analogue gears investing in computer hardware?? :-)
When I was attending RMAF last October I was wondering why we could see and listen to lots of analogue systems while the guys from the magazines and some hardware manufacturers were talking about the HiRez opportunities. I understood that at least in the US there are different teams in the playfield, the "old fashioned guys" like us and the "market and studio oriented people" in the business.
Maybe we see two trends, the streaming and HiRez efforts as well as the source oriented analogue activities. I have never seen so many tape recorders being bought than in the last six months - thanks to Tape Project only?
Raul, why not buying two tape recorders, a digital one and an analogue machine. You will be able to do everything you like on a good quality level. But what happens to your tonearm project in this case?
Should we say farewell to you cause your posting now under DIGITAL? Hopefully not! We need you, even the guys who like to debate emphatically with you. |
Halcro, I agree with you - something must have been happened with Raul, tequilas? some other shocks, maybe a life event? or are we interpreting too deeply? Or are we just living behind the horizon and do not understand what is approching us. When Raul was infected who could be the next? |
Dear Blackburn, good hint. I checked my travel goods and found a sombrero from last visit in Mexico. Will take it with me.
Dear Bjesien, Freud would have answered: twelve tonearms are not enough, or relating to your position maybe: You are entangled in a jealousy complex. |
Dear Raul,
glad to hear everything is on track with you and you are not deserting the analogue playfied at all.
regarding tapes I did clarify py position. Concerning the digital format I admit there are nice recordings especially on SACD which I enjoy via my DCS chain too -properly installed there is no cold sound.
Dear Halcro, am I infected already? |
Pryso, you are inviting the plinth makers, except of Raul. What do you expect being delivered. Nevertheless good move! |
Dertonarm, I have to admit in this respect you are completely right. We have different tastes and also different capabilites in perceiving the world as well as the audio sound. This is why we ended up in different religions and different churches - in audio too. Why not?
The problem arises when everyone claimes for himself objectivity and tells his followers you will become as good as me if you follow my roots. This is a problem we had and have with some leaders and we should be sensitive to what the leaders or the churches are aiming at.
It is fine when I discover a certain way of audio listening with some special gear to be the best matching approach. It is even better if I can share my opinions on music and gear with some others and also do receive some critical remarks on what I do and what I use. I always have to respect that there are other people living in a "completely different world", enjoying maybe in the same way or even better...music |
Oh Lewm - you diagree I assume. I will ask Dertonarm if he can send you a Vector, maybe one for Raul too. It helps a lot...I did not find out yet how many are necessary :-)
I aquired a very nice Technics MK II and I am considering building a plinth around it. Does anybody know which one might be suitable for two arms (9" and 12") and has tested against other approaches? |
Dear Lewm - maybe got it wrong!
thanks for your explanations. Agree that slate is a wonderful material. I heard the Beat at RMAF too and I do share your assessment - this was one of the highlights, really good sounding |
Are there any launching dates of Raul' s tonearm and Dertonearm's turntable? Do we see something in 2011? |
OK we have a time window for the Apolyt. What about Raul' s tonearm?
Does it appear in 2011? or do we have to wait until all jokes regarding the gallion are told... |
Thanks Dgob,
i went a bit on a side of Copernicus and put the question on "Rauls platform" |
Dear Ct0517,
still looking for my long screws, will come up with an assessment. I was a little engaged on other topics in the meantime. If you are interested in tubes - I fell in love with the sound they produce - there is a wonderful book available by i-tunes, for the first time in English: The hifi tunes Book of Audio Tubes. You will love it, also the images.
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Dear all,
I asked my carpenter if he could produce a plinth for my SP10 MK II. I know when starting this i left the path of wisdom, at least to most of the supporters of a naked solution. The plinth is 140 mm high. Does anybody know how long the screws should be to fix the motor? the holes for the screws are going to the bottom of the plinth (140 mm). I guess among us are some experts who have gained much more experience with the Technics SP 10 MK II than me.
Best & Fun Only. -Thuchan |
Dear Chris,
you are right, many footers are lying around here. Maybe need to clear a bit. Which arm do you mean? EMT 997?
Best & Fun Only - Thuchan |
Dear Ct0517, got it, sorry i did not think of my ET-2 cause this is such a perfect installation on the Naka I will not change it anyway. My plinth at the moment is not designed for a linear tracker and I do have so many other tonearms lying around - also need some clearance now...
of course this could be agood match!!!
Best & Fun Only - Thuchan |
Dear Corby, many thanks for this good hint. Will follow your suggestion
Best & Fun Only - Thuchan |
Dear Lewm, yes - I bought a very good MK II motor unit in a very modest plinth. I would not say it is a master piece. I will let build a new one made of plywood, not a very extravagant solution but carefully handcrafted.
Best & Fun Only - Thuchan |
Dear Lewm, Dear Raul - this thread is not about the naked guys only! look in the middle of the thread, also implying the philosophical implications...
but thanks, yes I am aware of the option but I do not regard it as the best possible option as I stated before.
What I am doing here is an experiment and I am not sure where it will end. Of course there are better solutions as Lewm mentioned. I will find out.
Best & Fun Only - Thuchan |
Dear Chris,
I was finishing the last meters on my loudspeaker project, now having exactley calibrated the attenuators and all fixed in a special box. This was the time to close the rear front cover. All done now!
Next I went into the Technics SP 10 MK II experiment in a nice but not Panzerholz or slate based wooden plinth. It is a good sounding machine, nevertheless not exactely reaching my demands. Maybe I am a bit spoiled too and it is different with a MK III in a plinth of Albert or Dobbins. But the prices for a good combo are getting insane regarding how much this Pro-series went in earlier times.
I am glad that you like tubes, there are also nice ones from the US :-)
Dear Corb, -thanks for the hint.
Best & Fun Only - Thuchan |
Dear Chris,
thanks for the impressive images and the short movie. It really looks a bit shaky in the beginning but I do believe it will work properly. I guess your tonearm handling is influenced by the camera's position not using the headshell's guidance.
I received similar results when putting the Continuum table on a similar support structure like the Symposiums do
Regarding a tonearm's support I am using a 16 pounds heavy TOHO TH-80 arm base. In this design the tonearm itself is completely separated from the vibration source. It is an arm base which is made of cast iron cut-processed and heavy enough.
It adopts a function to adjust the height within the range from 0 to 35mm and provide a built-in level for balance adjustment. I mounted a FR-66fx on the TOHO TH-80. The results show that a stable and heavy tonearm bases IMHO is crucial for a setup.
What is the weight of your tonearm base?
best & fun only -Thuchan |
T-bone, thanks for your helpful comments. if the plastic piece does not link the arm pod with the TT what kind of material will do it? I always use isolation platforms: the TOHO stand is placed on one, the motor on a separate one, the turntable on three isolated feet with platforms and the whole system again on a special Copulare isolation table (platform structure as well as feet).Following JC's suggestion to shield the TT i should build a surrounding shield for allover wave protection around the Continuum. This I can do. What is the best material and how much of the turntable needs to be covered, 100 mm above the highest point (tonearm)?
best & fun only |
May I ask all of you if a very heavy outboard armpod as I am using it for the FR-66fx on my Continuum is moving despite the fact that I connected it with a plastic part between the TOHO armpod and the heavy Continuum body - in this way creating a sandwich constellation. I for myself don't believe the TOHO stand will move but I am eager to learn if this is possible anyway.
best & fun only |
Dear T-Bone, Dear Dertonearm. Oh yes theory is a wonderful thing but are there any experiment documentations available which support the "cantilever-theory" as well as the "isolation theory (of different platforms)".
Funnily I made the experience when I put the motor drive and the three legs (feet) of the Continuum on extra platforms the sound is quiter and dynamically better. I would never return to a non isolation concept.
Nandric is right he knows how to handle the issue seriously ... :-)
best & fun only |
Jcarr,
you forgot something: a ladder !
by placing a ladder (which reaches high enough over the shielding) in front of the TT you will be able to climb onto it and maintain the TT from above.
But seriously: air isolation is one of the best measurements if designed and implemented properly.
I am wondering why most people are positioning their TT(s) near one of the sidewalls of their listening room using very long cables and also giving their speaker systems the opportunity shooting into the room free
and fast. Why not designing a LS system and positioning it two meters in front of the rear wall in such a way that most of the waves are not entering the space one meter behind and in between the speakers. reflections should be dispersed by corner, rear wall and ceiling measurements too.
We are always speaking about one unit - a TT or an arm pod. But we never look at the whole system - the listening room.
best & fun only |
Dear all,
this is a thread full of helpful ideas how to improve the installation of TTs and the whole system. I needed over ten years to find out that the most limiting factor for good sound is the listening room itself. Usually you cannot change the room's structure and you need to compromise on many topics. This was exactly my situation in 2006.
Then I decided to build my own room. It took me two years studying and doing preparations for the final design, building structure and all the issues for the potential technical and acoustical effects. At this place I do not repeat what I am writing on my page but let me express that besides of the best construction material the right size of the room, having enough space behind and above the speakers and also between the speakers and the listening position is most important.
Either you do it in a monitor setting very close to the speakers as Jonathan suggests or you do it like I did keeping reflections ( also the first reflections ) under control by putting special frequency related treatment material in the additional extra-ceiling and also breaking the waves by the
surrounding wall installations avoiding glass and flat structures at the same moment.
It may sound funny but it is a big challenge to create a room which breathes and still has some atmosphere, so you like to stay there and do not feel entering a bunker or a dead room. In the end we want to relax and enjoy the sound - not the distortions. I have to admit that some theories work pretty well when being implemented but there are lots of thoughts also in this thread applying on "small rooms" which definitely do
not work in my listening room. Not a big issue for me anymore.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to highlight my special situation ( maybe a little too :^) . What could be more important is that if you have a nice system and you do think about an apropriate room you may put some efforts in this rather than rebuilding the system all the time, or shielding everyhing around you. We need to live with airborne and structural waves but you can do a lot of improvements.
best & fun only |
Dear Nandric,
we may help Sam... but then I have to enter Fleib's new church I guess .?
best & fun only |
Dear Ct0517,
there is no argument against your position. Electricity installation is the start of a good system, even if you change some simple issues in a modest system. You discovered a flexible solution. I my case as I was able to influence nearly everything when building the room. My electrican installed three wide cross sectional lead cables in-wall mounted in the 50 cm thick ceiling going directly to the junction box.
I use a specially build passive connector box with many inputs, no filters.
best & fun only |
Dear Nandric,
hopefully Marlene and me have different experiences... Nevertheless if you start "living in a sealed world" you may end up like your parable shows. 100.000 is not enough...
best & fun only |
Dear Halcro,
isn't it funny that someone who builds a nice looking TT (at least from a design point of view) thinks his potential customers are mad and fully standing outside of the real world. Who will pay the price they ask for? No one! I have seen and listened to the unit at the RMAF 2010. It is nothing spectacular about it unless that it's builder "flew to the moon with NASA" (not really...), was in touch with all unsolved technical issues the world is desperately questioning, and so on... if you read all the marketing lines...
okay it should have a place at the MOMA - yes! besides the first Transrotor etc.
best & fun only |
Dear Nandric,
oh yes, got your point very early. I mean Marlene seemed to live in a sealed world - not you! Marlene was able to do much more than me - maybe she also had more beautiful legs...
Your assumption about the listening room is quite right, but you know the plan and the implementation had a price. My wife was asking for a Japanese Garden and a big veranda on top of it. It also has an advantage, the room is fully noise sealed - which means I cannot hear her anymore when she is dancing on the veranda :-). but be assured she knows how to reach me...
You see it is not as simple as it looks and one usually does not need a room like mine. It is rather based on an ambition than money. Shure you can do it too but maybe you went not such crazy as me. Stay normal please!
best & fun only
best & fun only |
Dear Raul,
in this case Dertonarm is absolutely right. You should not fall into the trap of marketing. There are other TTs which provide same stableness and bearing technology. Look at the EMT 927 bearing - and this is proofed in professional business since 50 years. Look at the Continuum`s bearing and do experience it in real life. As I said I have experienced the ONEDOF and I took my conclusions soundwise. Yes for 10.000 Dollar because of the nice design and the build quality - okay. But it is up to you going for 15 times the price because you think technologywise this is a major improvement. You only need to cross the border for a short flight to Denver, maybe at the next RMAF. Have fun!
best & fun only |
Dear Raul,
I do respect all technological inventions. Having a patent does not necessarily mean something, it depends on the topic the patent covers.
we need to look into it more deeply.
If you ever build a TT Raul don't forget to put the price tag over "100.000", this will raise attention. Look at the plastic buttons at the motor. Besides of the stable bearing what is so special, technically? one motor with three belts? the separate tonearm stand? - which looks very good, absolutely.
I like the stand's design! but I would not pay 20.000 Dollar for a stand, would you?
best & fun only |
The messenger deserves an extra discount. Oh no- not again this kind of habits and exchanges without staying to one's product. I have experienced this in Germany, pls. not here on Audiogon. Hope I am wrong on that - we will see in the future...
Best & Fun Only |
Dear Raul,
i have one advantage if you let me put it into these words. I have seen and listened to this turntable. So pls. take your chance and convince yourself in Denver. Then let's continue this discussion. Okay?
best & fun only |
I stayed three full days at RMAF 2010 and I went into nearly all rooms. If you are eager to explore an item's capabilitis you sometimes can do it, sometimes not. It depends on the chain used and maybe your experience with the chain, if it is transferable.
In the case of the Onedof he presented the TT with a small but well organized system as it was the case in some other rooms too, e.g. Soundsmith or with the slate based Lenco TTs in two other rooms.
I would not say the sound in the Onedof room - basically his turntable was playing - did not play nicely, but I was not overwhelmed. I then did not know the price tag and also did not ask cause the nice looking TT did not throw me of the chair. Now i am curious what this year's appearance will bring. I am wondering that not so many people noticed the Onedof at RMAF 2010. Anyone did?
BTW Raul described the efforts of turntable building in such a dramatic way that I might think he will show up with a table for 300.000...
Best & Fun Only
|
Dear Ct517 - if you order quickly the blonde being the manager of the service team will be visiting you very soon. It is said she is responsible for personal delivery and installation. You may send your wife on a leave cause the unpacking takes quite some time and does need a undisturbed environment. She usually has a spare belt with her which is a bit stronger - just in case the three belts don't make it....
Best & Fun Only |
Dear Ct0517,
you know high end audio business is facing hard times, especially when it comes to convincing new customers entering new pleasures zones. Aleks knows that we all enjoy well equipped systems. Therefore he wants to provide us with some extra services sending us on a trip to moon, mars or whatever is beyond our current experience level. I read his website that the entry gate for "his pleasure dome" will be the turntable, next is your personal helicopter, you will travel to mars, jupiter and end up in the Hindenburg - or why is he offering all "his products" - oh year the fringe benefits! He does himself understand as being part of the game. Therefore he shows a picture of himself being very active in the risky snow hills on Jupiter.
So you see it is more than the cute blonde's potential services and if you are looking for new adventures getting out of your turntable corner you will be able to live a life even more exciting than 007 does.
Thanks for my promotion as marketing manager but my real job is being captain of the Hindenburg - see you soon...
best @ fun only |
Dear all,
thanks for taking care of me but I think the captain survives ( always )...
best & fun only |
No No Nandric, you are on the right track. Geoch would love it too I assume. He understands a lot about cultural implications and you two might have crossed ways with a better outcome I am pretty sure.
small or not precise motors will not do a good job for our turntables.
I have seen improvements on older Raven motors when exchanged with Pabst drives. In the meantime they have improved. But this is only an example.
I hope you are not sitting in front of your table moving the platter during playback every two minutes... or did I understood something wrong...
best @ fun only |
Dear Halcro,
I always have regarded speed control, especially for the "belt-drive guys", as absolutely crucial. Drive Force, stability and precision are a must for a very good turntable system.This is why I implemented the VPI SDS drive on my two Micro Seikis in a two way fly wheel configuration. And this is why I am using the Dusch Multiconverter DU 937 for steering my EMT R80 also controlling it very precisely with my Strobo-weights.
I do know people listening to records "in a slower mode" than 33, 45 or 78. They enjoy it as a bit smoother sound. I don't know what they enjoy, maybe wow & flutter, instability and a change in sound... so what.
best @ fun only |
Deartonearm,
... Amen.
best @ fun only |
Dear Nandric,
ok - need to write in a more harmless way. Geoch was not intended as a teasing, nor the small motors. I only had a picture of you sitting in front of your Kuzma - forgive me!
small motors are cheap, don`t have large dimensions, easy to build in and to exchange. That`s all! Believe me. Today`s TT manufactures don`t go for the high priced & very unique parts. Why should they? - the platter is running and customers do believe if they will place five (small) motors in beautifully designed boxes around their TT it will run 5 times smoother and pretty exact.
NO TEASING @ NO FUN |
Deartonearm,
in general you are right. Maybe we should add to your list of gifted innovators during the last decade Mark Doehmann et alt. from Continuum (software, vaccuum system, bearing, built quality, motor, steering system, tonearm)
best @ fun only |
Are these some inventions in TT design or not?
everyone may judge on a personal bases:
➢ Nested Platter Design using new proprietary formula for Magnesium Alloy. 30kg Mass of platter assembly 330mm Diameter. ➢ New MILSPEC Alloy used for highly damped platter ballast. ➢ New Fully Sealed Self Lubricating Highly Damped Rigid Bearing Design with Inverted 30mm Bearing shaft of special alloy running in ultra hard steel bushings. ➢ Vacuum Rotary Feedthrough for main bearing with low friction polymer seal. ➢ Massive Highly damped Magnesium Alloy Chassis with internal ribbing Shape Optimised for new bearing platter assembly using www.advea.com Reshape(tm) software. ➢ New Motor Technology Linear 3Phase AC - 24Volt DC Brushless design with integral optical encoder for motion control. Proprietary DSP software designed for ultra-low cogging and torque ripple with speed stability of 0.006%. High Torque 600 oz/inch capability continuous. ➢ 33, 45, 78 with wide range adjustment and absolute lock. ➢ Motor is Belt Drive using Pyrathane precision oring. ➢ New Vacuum Pump design with Stealth Mode Operation. Designed for continuous operation but quiet enough to house in room and in rack. ➢ New proprietary design Pulse Removal and Echo Filter System (PREFS) to remove platter to record vibration signature of continuous vacuum pump systems. ➢ New Decoupled Armboard design using Magnetic Stabilisation
best @ fun only |
Deartonearm,
I think Continuum was on the right track looking to collaborate with Minus-K. I don't know what person decided to give it up and put the rest of the money in new ventures rather than supporting the Continuum family.
it is really a sad story, on their web site they warn potential customers not buying their products except at their dealerships and when you open the dealership page - nothing! The message is: Don't buy somewhere else but at us it is also very difficult...
best @ fun only |
Not to bad Unoear. I am curious to hear about your experiences. I am in contact with Minus-K for a long time but we failed coming together because of the weight problem - 250 pds. It seems they now have solved the issue. Let's see.
best @ fun only |
Dear Halcro,
maybe the weak side of the Continuums are their isolation issues. Neither the magnetive leverage of the Caliburn nor the feet of the Criterion are benchmark solutions. Therefore I had to implement my own isolation.
For all my TTs I have special isolation solutions, not only the stands but also additional special platforms (HRS, Micro-Seiki Air, Copulare Corals) provide a vey stable, balanced and quiet environment. It took quite some efforts to find appropriate measurements. But believe me it is worth a try, also to separate motors, body and tonearm stands.
best @ fun only |
Dear Raul,
The SME 30/2 a top performer... aua. You are not joking I guess.
Hmm? Ok, I have heard it in a very good Kondo chain in it`s motherland with a mounted SME V. Okay if it is a top performer the Walker is the Giant. Both is not true in my very honest opinion.
Hope this is not the benchmark you draw your comparisons on TTs. But I am afraid you do. Hmmm...
best @ fun only |
