A Copernican View of the Turntable System
Dear all, I use the arm pod specialy made for my Kuzma Stabi Ref. by the Reed in conjunction with the 2A ,12'' tonearm ( www.tonearms.lt/accessories). Both the TT and the 'tower' rest upon 3 spikes and together on a sand filled rack ( Copulare). The arm pode is made from layers of steel (2x), cork (2x),granite (2x) and acryl (1x). This is obviously an attempt to construct an arm pod wich is not only rigid but also accousticaly 'dead'. My first thought was that this construction was some kind of overkill probable because I owned the Linn LP-12 before... But I am very happy with the result and prefer this 'combo' above the Triplanar VII wich is on the Kuzma base. Regards, |
Dear Halcro, I already mentioned spikes. They are made from steel and are of course adjustable (+/-4mm). My specimen is 7kgr but the weight is dependent from the ordered dimensions wich should be consulted with Vidmantas (the owner of the Reed) or the (national) dealer. The Kuzma and the pod sit on the sand filled shelf,4cm thick ,54x54 cm large. The rack is Copulare, with 4 identical shelfs ,made in Germany (see Google). Kind regards, |
Dear Lew, The Dutch collectivly deny any sence for humour to the Germans. I thought because of II WW but I learned that the more probale cause is the lost finale in 1974. This event they will never forget nor forgive to their neghbours. On the other hand only 8 examples of your beloved Twain are sold there...So you may be in trouble with some of them. But 'our' Daniel is a world citizen so you will survive I hope. Regards, |
Dear Lew, Your jealousy reg. my arm pod is such that you even use such 'arguments' as gallions and slaves against the innocent thing. I expected, to be honest, some reference to your beloved Newton and his laws but I need to deal only with the arguments you posted. And those are to my mind self defeating. No slave had the means to own both; the TT as well as the tonearm. So obviously the more probale situation was that there was a TT in one gallion and the tonearm in the other. If the slaves wanted some music the only possible way was to connect them somehow. Regards, |
Dear Dgob, I alredy mentioned how glad I was with your post and results. Not only because I own an very good arm pod but also because I somehow feel to have won at least one argument from Lew. However while I am really happy with my Kuzma Stabi Reference I also know about the existance of Kuzma XL . Not sure about the plinth but well about the armpod (both huge qua weight and price). But I have never seen any comment questioning this armpod. So Mr. Kuzma was at least an half Copernican before Halcro. Regards, |
Dear Lew, I think that an arm pod for a 9'' tonearm is more difficult to make then for 10'' or 12'' arms; one need to cut the part near the platter. But more interesting is the question about the material and construction. On my Kuzma Stabi Ref. Kuzma used a sandwich of two layers acryl and one of aluminium between them for the plinth and two layers for the armbase; aluminium (1x), acryl (1x). But for his XL model he used only brass. The XL is all about the mass (demping?) but the esthetics was obviosly also important. I wish I could afford one. BTW the TT and the arm pod are seldom offered second hand in contrdisticion to the linear arm. As I mentioned elswhere my Reed arm pod is made from different layers : steel (2x);cork (2x); granite (2x) and acryl (1x). So it seems to me that there are 3 possibilitys: mass demping, no demping and sandwich constructions of various kinds. Regards, |
Dear Lew, Thanks for your kindness but I have a fitter(?) or technician with an lathe who already made some tonearm parts for me. Besides if I needed an second arm pod I would order by Vidmantas. But I can at last give you some advice. Because we both own the Reed and the Triplanar I know what you need to do if you intend to experiment with the'nacked objects'. You need just a bar of brass ,10cm wide, with 3 holes with thread on each side. Your sevings will be such that you can afford the most exotic spikes one can imagine. Regards, Regards, |
Dear Geoch, 'life is to short' but it is never to late to learn. So as soon as I get my engeneering degree I will respond to the 'demping question'. Meanwhile you can direct your inquisitive mind to Vidmantas and ask any question about cork you like ([email protected] or [email protected]). I am very reluctant to ask Halcro to bring some 'light' in this 'mass matter' because I think that he is angry at me. Regards, |
Dear Ct0517, I agree in general about the 'extravagant prices' in analog domain but disagree that manufacturers are the primary cause. Those from abroad hardly get 30% of the selling price. First there is the import duty +VAT,then the importeur and then the dealer. Above this also the value of the national currency. I got my Reed arm pod for less then $500 thanks to the EU and absence of dealers. Regards, |
Dear Banquo, A local machinist with an CNC lathe would be ideal. In particular for the tonearms with a collar because such an armpod need to be milled from,say, solid brass. Ie a 'sandwich' arm pod with different layers is more difficult to make. For such a machinist our 'DIY' person needs only a good drawing with exact dimensions because the machinist can order any kind of material for the purpose. This kind of 'construction' will need a plate with the hole for the arm with the obvious advantage : different plates= different tonearms. For the plate one can use acryl, aluminium, steel, etc. but I personaly would use solid brass for the 'base' because of the weight (demping). Regards, |
Dear Ct0517, The problem by an description is the fact that we are not able to 'visualize' the construction. What is: 'the key is getting your tonearm base on the plate?' Assuming an arm pod next to the TT what kind of plate you are talking about? If you presuppose the usual arm base which is on any TT we all are able to think of some other kind of material for the purpose. My point is this. For the tonearms like Triplanar ,without a collar , one can use a cylinder of, say, brass and drill 3 holes with thread on each side. But for the tonearms with an collar this will not do. BTW the most tonearms are with a collar so one need to get them trough the arm pod and connect them with the phonocable 'inside' the arm pod. There is alas no way an DIY can mill such a 'hole' in a solid brass cylinder. The plate on such an'drilled out' cylinder is of course very easy. One can use an acryl plate and drill a hole for any tonearm with an collar. Regards, |
Dear Banquo, In the first place I got the meaning of 'the plate' that Ct0517 is talking about. He means 'the rack' on which the TT sits. Well on my rack there is a sand filled SHELF on which my Kuzma Stabi reference and my arm pod sit. The sand in the shelf has a demping function and solid brass as a alloy or amalgam has also a good demping function. My Reed arm pod has different layers of different materials with the intention to get the arm pod acousticaly dead. I don't believe that a solid piece of metal is acousticaly dead but the weight of such a piece of metal may function as such. Ie that is what those heavy TT's are about: you always need more weight. To put it the other way 'the heavier the better'. Otherwise one need to use springs as is the case by many TT's. Regards, |
Dear Halcro, I am truly glad to hear this;we are cool now. But your arm pod remind me somehow about Picasso. 'Look', he said to a friend, 'how easy drawing is'. He then draw with a single stroke a pigeon. 'Anyone should be able to do this'. He added. Now an arm pod is of course a'different animal' but do you really think that we can make the same as yours? If so I don't believe that I am able to understand anything about Australians. Except of course that they must be onbelievable optimistic kind of the human kind. Regards, Regards, |
Dear Halcro, I know that you are a very 'smart cookie' but clairvoyant? Well as you presupposed I was able to find a craftsman with an CNC lathe in Holland and I really enjoy to look how he works with this 'monster'. However Thuchan is a different 'cookie'. He is an entrepeneur with a clear thought of what he wants and has the capability to organize all the needed work. Dertonarm is btw a close friend and they are at the moment adjusting the Bavarian voice (aka speakers). So obviously he was also in the position to find all the needed professionals in Germany for the job. So you made a good quess. I am in particular interested in this 'trumpet' in front of the TAD 2002 driver but even Daniel was not able to explain to me what the 'clue' is . My shortcoming of course. Regards, |
Dear Halcro, I looked more cereful to my arm pod and am very impressed with the looks of the granite parts. As architect you should know if this material is suitabale for an arm pod. It looks unvelievable beatuful. Banquo 363, I am not sure but it may be the case that the tonearm (12'') was 1500 Euro and the arm pod 500 Euro. Anyway not more than 2000 Euro for both. Regards, |
Dear Halcro, Thanks for the lecture reg. 'structure-and air born(sound) transmission'. This is done in the context of the arm pod formulation but, cause of the generality, must also apply to the TT's. We can see, so to speak, two opposite approches: Raven, Brinkamann, Kuzma XL ,etc. on one side and ,say, Thorens and Linn-LP12 on the other. But the last mentioned use springs while the other don't. Does and how 'mass matter' in this context? BTW this is a kind of reformulation of my earlier question. Regards, |
Dear Lew, Our respected member Mackris stated in some thread :'When thinking about a turntable design, you need to consider the physical energy paths in much the same way you consider the current paths in an amp. design.' I know that you are not much impressed by P. Lurne but he deed exactly this in his new Belladonna TT. I am sure you will find some very interesting ideas in his new design (www.tnt-audio.com; the Belladonna ,part II). Regards, |
Dear Lew, you are very difficult to satisfy or please. Even the 'soft activity' is refused on theoretical grounds alone despite this saying about the pudding. Only the argument is changed from 'galleons' to a movement in concert with the platter. As I suggested (03-20-11) in relation to an brass cylinder you will be able to afford the most exotic 'spikes' imaginable and those Rollerblocks JR look to me very appealing. You can eventualy also use them to 'soft absorber' those tube amps of yours. Regards, |
Dear Lew, Glad to have you on board because you was at first very skeptical about this arm pod undertaking. But you also provided the info about the obtainable meterials, brass cylinders included. The further development is obvious:a. the direction of Halcro's 'exclusive' arm pod with 'universal' applications qua tonearm type as well as lenght b. the direction of the cheap solutions and c. something in between. My preference is for the brass cylinder with 3 holes + thread on each side but there are obvious limitations: 9'' tonearms are problematic and tonearms with a collar also. However the price is +/-$200. For the adaptation of the brass cylinder for a more universal use one will need the help of one craftsman with unknown costs. Regards, |
Dear Dgob, I really hope that anyone will be able to 'go down the route of Halcro' but I already mentioned Picasso in this context. To accomodate,say, a brass cylinder for all the purposes (aka 'universal arm pod') the crafstman need to cut a supstantial part from the cylinder and consequently reduce the weight. Then one will also need the plates ,etc. which add to the unknown costs. One needs some good idea about the cost in advance I should think. What is possible and what is advisable may contradict each other. I myself somehow fancy this sturdy brass cylinder and would never polish the thing. Regards, |
Dear Chris, Thanks for the video in the first place. I was very confused with what I have seen. That is, I assume, how our brain works. One does not expect to see the opposite of what one believes to be the case or 'the truth'. But there was some unexpected by-product. I got a (more) vivid picture of those galleons which Lew 'invented' for the sake of argument. I want my arm pod as firm and weighty as possible and in correspondence with my ,uh, belief. However 'mechanics' is not my trade so no quess from my side about mechanical matters. I may get a reprimand from both : Halcro and Lew and this would be to much to bear for a single post. Regards, |
Dear Chris, This hobby is not only irrational but it also make you greedy. I at last got a perfect SP 10 mk2 with all capacitors renewed but have no idea what to do with it. Like those MM carts: buy now ,fast and as many as possible and think or test later.Then this ebay 'syndrome' is realy addictive. I am not able at the moment to resist but reduced my search to 'only' German ebay and ebay.com. The English have actualy nothing to offer(qua MM carts). BTW I am very reluctant to remove my Kuzma and put the SP-10 instead. Dear Lew, Thanks for the worning . I somehow thought that Raul recommended removal of the cover in casu. Dear Halcro, I 'inspected' your system and have seen that your DDTT is an Denon(?). Are we tolking about different animals? There is no place, so to speak, for the spikes on the underside of the SP-10. Or so I thought. Regards, |
Dear Chris, As I wrote I was not sure about the 'under cover' of the SP-10 and consequently the footers. This also imply of course the hight of my Reed armpod. I also asked help and advice from Lew and he recommended the Boston platter mat or the SAEC one but also worned reg.their weight. My armpod is 10cm high with +/- 1cm adjustable spikes. I sleep well btw but my conscience started asking some tedious questions about the sense of such 'abundance' of carts and TT's. I hate the greedy characters so this kind of reflection is unavoidable. Halcro, never heard the expression 'asparagus' and was not able to find in my dictionary. Never thought that your eloquence will become a problem. Do you mean the vegetables? Regards, |
Dear Chris, This is exactly what my thoughts and intentions were. My Kuzma Stabi Reference, as many other TT's, was meant for just one tonearm. I wantend an second tonearm also because my Basis Exclusive has two independant phono pres.I was not able to solve the problem myself but was searching on internet for the solution. This way I discovered the Reed company and thy were willing to accept my order. They just started producing TT's and tonearms. But Lew is right considering the problems involved by an armpod. First the dimensions needed for the armpod in relationship to a given TT, then the tonearmlenght, then the problem where to put the armpod next to the TT, etc. Not an easy task for an amateur. I needed to describe all dimensions of my Kuzma and my rack very exact before they started this project. My armpod was btw the first they constructed. But despite the fact that I owned 7 different tonearms non of them was adequate. The point Lew made . I needed an 12" tonearm for my Kuzma. So I ordered both the armpod as well as the 12'' tonearm.I got not only the armpod and the tonearms but also some friends in Lithuania but I am aware that my whole project could go wrong. One can't count in advance reg. the capability and integrity of people one ask help from. I was lucky I am sure. Regards, |
Dear Brad, I certainly can comprehend the joy involved in making something on your own. But because of this division of labour we are not equal.The 'wish' or 'desire' don't imply any capability a priori or in advance. I myself am very glad to know an machinist with the CNC lathe. In my most optimistic dreams I see my self not working with the 'tool' mentioned. This is also a part of our 'understanding'. |
Dear Brad, The machinist in casu is alas not my friend, so even just one lunch , not to mention the plural, is out of question. My 'luck' is that this guy is also interested in tonearms. However my armpod is made by my real friend Vidmantas by the Reed company. I am also lucky I should think that I am able to pay for the 'lunches' in plural. BTW there are 'many' other things involved by the tonearms so to 'have' a machinist is as important as to have an 'beautiful lady' ( not from Italy of course). Regards, |
Hi Chris, According to Kessier& Pisha ( Tonarm Geometry and Setup; Audio,January 1980) some Japanese tonearms were not optimaly designed .Ie in the sense of 'optimal geometry'. Dyna DV 505 : the offset angle is 21.500 while the optimal is 22.814; the overhang is 15.000 while the optimal is 17.164. Lew mentioned some problems with the adjustment of his DV 505 but in the context of Baerwald, etc. To my mind the 'zero points' are about our preference regading the question where on the LP radius we want the least distortion. But I will gladly let the (possible) technical implication to Dertonarm, Halcro, Raul and others. Regards, |
Dear Daniel, I don't like to use the 'Greek way out': knowledge beginns by knowing to not know. My point is much more simpler. If you know that you are ignorant about something you should ask questions and not bother about your own 'knowledge status'. Because I got the impression that we are free to choose where we want the least distortion on the record radius, irrespective of the tonearm kind or lenght (aka 'zero points') I thought that the tonearm design and its 'own geometry' is, say, a 'different animal'. I still remember this issue about the 'optimal effective lenght' of the FR-64S. Was Ikeda san wrong, the user manual or who or what? In the same article by Kessler/Pisha I read: by the overhang of 15mm the only effective lenght that will be optimal is 274 mm, a lenght larger than many TT bases can accommodate. The authors also refer to Bauer and Seagrave (56/57) and not only to Bearwald btw. I have no idea when first stereo LP was produced but assume, after reading you contribution, that their basic premise was Bearwald from 1941. And then to think , as I deed, that after my high school I was liberated from math. for the rest of my life. Kind regards, |
Dear Lew, The math was alas my worst subject at school but I thougt in terms of 'variables' and 'constants'in this context. I know that the term 'variable' has no sense in the math (thanks to Frege)but we are used, so to speak, to use those terms. Well if we are free to choose the 'zero points' as we like or depending where we want the the least distortion than this means to me something that is 'variable'. So consequently there must be 'something' which should be constant. So I thought that this must be the tonearm 'on its own'. I am sorry for my terminology but that is what I thought. From your statements I 'see' or deduce that we have no choice at all in the sense mentioned. Ie the designer of the tonearm in casu predeterminated our 'choice' in advance , so to speak. Ergo we have no 'free choice' at all? What an hobby! Regards, |
Dear Chris, "I rest my case as Nikola would say''? I 'would' if I was able to to understand the connection between the 'mathematical symplicity' of the tonearm geometry and the actual state of affare in adjusting the damn thing(s). So I started a separate thread to please some German friend of my as well to 'enlighten' the 40 years of 'darkness' in my life. As Halcro 'would say' the 'heliocentric illusion'.So I am waiting for the promissed lecture or/and enlightment. Regards, |
Oh my, oh my. I 'see' Lew for my 'mental eye' shouting: 'I knew I was right with my galleons!'But my position is different. I at last 'grasped' what the religion is about. But if anybody is free to choose his own religion and even his political preference, why should this be different with the 'world outlook'? My quess is that some very strong feelins are involved. Well I care much about my armpod. So if the 'heliocentric world view' or the Greek orthodox kind of religion to which I belong by burth, is more accomodating than my choice should be obvious. But it hurts when someone who you regarded as a friend can do such thing to you. I think that Kant should be blamed for this. Regards, |
Dear Daniel, What an suprise. I thought that you are 100% Kantian. Ie ready to die for the 'absolute truth'. What is wrong with the gravity? Some problems with your TT design? We all, I think, have some peculiar problems with what you call a 'cruel misstress'. We are the human kind and this means not nesessarily the Kantian kind. Kind regars, |
Dear Lew, I expected some euphoria about the victory of your galleons. But instead your are chalenging my nationalistic feelings. Slovenia and Kuzma are my ex brothers and I already own Kuzma's TT. There are boundaries to any kind of tolerance,you know. But If Kuzma offered one for free as a token of our reconciliation I am willing to (re) consider my tolerance. Regards, |
Dear Chris, If I understand Freud well this is how 'it' should work: 1. first step is the denial (= your post); 2 second step is the doubt; 3. third step is insecurity and 4. seling the demn thing to get some night's rest. In the meanwhile I should be able to get a second 'nacked TT'. Sleep well till the second 'step'. Regards, |
Hi Audpulse, If I am able to count this make at least two man 'who has chosen the right material(s)'. But there are others who have chosen for the 'acousticaly dead' arm pod made as a sandwich from: two layers of steel,two layers of cork, two layers of granite and one of acryl. This abundance of materials combined with the scientific reaserch regarding the acoustical death imply a different kind of animal. So it is more about the man than the material if you get my meaning. Regards, |
I can add the Reed arm pod among the commercially available kind (www.reed.lt ; accessories). But what about a 'sturdy' one for cheap? I 'assist' ( by looking) my machinist while he was busy to cut from a billet of bronze a collar for my Pioneer P-70 tonearm. Not exactly Heureka but some kind of Aha Erlebnis : this stuff must be very suitable for an arm pod . Bronze is an alloy so depending on the 'amalgam' heavier or lighter. To add (more) weight one can choose larger diameter,etc. Lew already mentioned where one can get bronze (e.a.) in all kinds of dimensions. For the tonearms with surface fastening one need just 3 holes with thread on each side . By polishing the thing it will look like made from gold. I assume nobody else got this idea? Regards, |
Dear Halcro, I was the first customer by the Reed company and ordered both: the tonearm and the arm pod . But specific for my Kuzma Stabi Reference. My arm pod was the first they have produced and of course meant for my Kuzma. So, I am sure, they will produce whatever a customer want. If I remember well I got both for 1500 Euro. But meanwhile they have importeurs and dealers evrywhere so this means at least twice the price. One can ask Vidmantas about all the details. BTW your comment: 'pretty small' is not appreciated. So to get my revenge I don't consider you arm pod as beautiful any more. Regards, |
Dear Halcro, Very sorry to hear about your insomia but hope that those painkillers are effective. Now Lew mentioned somewhere that he gets his best ideas just before going to sleep. If we can put your both in bed together some huge Heureka may come out as a result. I of course mean pure intellectual cooperation. The possibility to get an heavy armpod for $40 looks even more promissing than the start of the MM thread. Is there any chance that such an arm pod can be made from granite? The kind from Lithuania is , as I already mentioned, unbelievable beautiful. Regards, |
Dear Lew, I am not familiar with USA price(s) for the Reed but in Germany (www.audio-markt.de) the Reed 2A is 2440 Euro ( basic version) while, for example, Raven 10.5 cost 4000 Euro. Not a bargain but still a 'decente price'. For those with, uh, the 'French connection' even cheaper. As far as I know there is no importeur in France (yet). Regards, |
Dear Lew, In the first place congratulation with your birthday. In the second with your Lab 845 PX. Since you are still working I assume that you are a young gentleman in comparison with some other members. Except for those two facts (the birthday and the Lab) I don't believe a single word of the rest of your complaints. I hope your Lab 845 PX will surpass your expectations. Kind regards, |
