Revelator sub working (9")
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Scanspeak makes some beast like woofers, Monstas, Rip roaring bass drivers,,
But its not my cup of tea.
So to answer my OP q' a 8 is superior to a 6.5, <<obviously>> Buta 10 which has properly behaving, polite lower mids, is the ideal, if not most perfect driver for bass/upper bass.
So i will be going from dual 6.5's witha mere ~disgustingly low~~ db sens of 87,,to a single 10 with , ~~get this~~ 98db sens..
IMHO any driver below say 94db, is , at least to my ears, worthless old out dated technology.
hate to repeat this 1m x's, but I'll say it one very last time, db sensitivity is 100% the most important tech value you ned to look at 1st in any speaker's performance.
All those wonderful things Seas says aboutn their Excel speakers, MIGHT BE true, so long as there is no high sens wide band in the room.
When i get the high sens 10 in, the Seas Thors will not sound like Wet Blanket speakers, more like speakers covered in tar, Just ugly, real ugly.
Even the Diatone was blown away bya 94db sens, Each 1 db you go up the ladder, smashes the one below,
db sens is everything concerning speaker voicing.
Scan and seas does have a few high sens, but nothing that will compete with the new high sens drivers.
Those 2 labs are stuck in the 1970's technology. |
I don't care WHO say it.. More is better when it comes to drivers...
~~~ My 2 local techs, emply stacked speakers, = More is better at least for their requirements.
I am not interested in ~~more~~ my listening rm is 10x12, a single 10 will be more than enough spl.
I'm not interested in ~~concert sound stage~~.
I'm trying to acheive the most accurate fidelity at low/mid volume.
FR meets this requirement.
xovers are a dismal failure |
Just left Richard's shop, we looked at some charts of the 8's vs 10's , which i am considering.
10's is the better choice.
I asked Richard about some of the low hz's in the cello section, , seems the 8's range would miss out in the lower range fq's.
Having owned the 6.5 MTM, for now going 20 years, I'll finally get to hear some of the lower bass I've been missing out in my full orchestra recordings. .
Now let me ck out a few of the above comments.
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, Voxtiv, makes a sub with a crossover. OOOOOP
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I've lost interest in the Voxativ
1st off , good luck attempting to get in touch with any USA distributor.
2ndly
I'm more interested in a 10, for the lower fq range. This will be my very 1st 10 inch in my system, I'm excited.
The 10, I will not require a sub.
Another local tech strognly suggested to avoid all subs. I agree.
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These 8" drivers work from 60hz to 300hz.
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Well yeah, if you can confirm that 60hz for the 8 as real.
manufacturers tech's sometimes are a bit ~stretched~.
From the chart on the web site, Richard sees the 10 going ~ 40's~~
Which I am not so sure there are 8's which can go into the 40's, in ~ accurate testing~~ apart from what the lab states on the specs.
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Four 8" woofers of good quality will always outperform a single 15" in terms of speed and resolution while providing about 15% more cone radiating area to move air.
This is a general statement, not withstanding the quality/performance of each driver.
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Well yes dual 6.5's do havea certain ~~Punch~~ in the bass whicha single 8 evena 10 might not mtach.
had the Thors been , if we can fantise a bit, over 91db sens, they would have made my perfect ideal speaker, But 87db, is ridiculously UN-sensitive.
So I have to give up deal 6.5's with Neodymium magnets.
A single 8 might be a bit limp in the bass vs dual 6.5's.
Perhaps not, if we throw in 95 db sensitivity on the single 8, might easily match dual 6.5's 87db.
10 inch with high sensitivity will bring my system all the bass i've been missing all these decades.
I'm expecting good things from the 10 in my full ~~cellos, double bass, timpini ~percussion~~orchestral recordings.
Building the cabinet now, for the 10, but will use the 8 til i order the 10.
Just going to stuff a bunch of fill in bottom section for the 8's parimeters.
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efficiency, though. You generally want a good 91db for one watt on the tweeter, preferably 92-93db efficiency.
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There are tons of choices of new compression horns which are 108-115 db efficiency. Why settle for a dismal, poor efficient 93db, ??
Always seek high efficiency. Higher the db sens the superior the voicing of fq's This is a general rule , but more often true than not.
In fact now that i made the high sens discovery, its my Golden Rule.
Thors 87db lol
You should go see what Seas says about their Excel drivers, In my book, none of which is true.
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The voice coils caught fire less than half an hour into the first band's set. LITERALLY CAUGHT FIRE.
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Richard Gray did advise , that I am going in the very opposite direction as his Atmosphere 2.8watt SWET with 83db eff speakers,
While the Atmos owner burnt up his SET amp, <<like 3x's>>?? according to Richard's testimony, That I would witha 100 pure watt PP amplifier <<Litterally Fry the 98 db speakers>>
This morning as i awaoke, i realized, just at what vol level on the linestage jadis can I turn before i have << high db level>>
Might have to get that Italian step attenuator for $300 have Ricahrd install,
OR sell off the Defy7 and make a offer on Richard;s 250 tube SET amplifier he designed, its all attached to a piece of plywood, , but thats neither here nor there, Its how does it sound.
After I get the 8's up N running I will test the 2 amps.
I mean even with the 6.5 Diatone, the vol knob hardly ever goes past 9 oclock, if that.
94db, then 98 db, now i am beginning to understand all this SET vs PP paired with super high FR speakers.
Got it.
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In any case, I suggest a bit more civility ladies and gentlemen. There's simply not enough of it in the world IMHO.
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Appreciate the back support
But this is Audiogon, a few snides here and there, is all part of the discussion.
Just so long as the mud slinging does not get out of hand to fist swinging.
This new high sensitivuty speaker is all brand new to me.
I was studiously looking over FR back a year ago, but until one has the actual experience of hooking 1 up to the amplifier in real time, then the whole thing becomes clearly apparent.
I havea feeling the Defy will have to go adios. And look for a SET, perferably mono blocks.
I'm done lifting amplifiers over say 50 lbs.
The Defy is at 70+ lbs. |
Rythmik F25s
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170 lbs of monsta bass,
I mean to ask, do you have neighbors, close by? Guess not, and your pets? Guess not.
10 inch bass will provide MORE than enough bass in any size room.
dual 15's , This is the bass The Who uses at rock concerts. |
While I agree with this sentiment 100%, there is always the exception to the rule.
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Yes my above post.
I am already looking fora 845 used SET amp on Ebay now.
Its possible the Defy may have to go.
Seems after all these years, it was high snsitivity speakers that i was after all this time,. However the caveat here is, will a SET perform complex full orchestra w/o getting all ~discombobulated~, Flustered~ breakdown~.
If yes, Defy stays.
Will order Richard's recommended Italian 47 step attenuator.
Just can't use hardly any of the power of the Defy.
Will have to ck the magnet temp now and then, so its not over heating. |
Very odd that high sensitivity speakers never really took off in popularity. In my limited experience , wide band high sens is the only speakers that exist.
xover things are deleted permanently in my book.
WEll perhaps the SET amplifiers may have beena road block, as most are very heafty and very expensive back through the years.
And no doubt this was the issue.
Now SET's can be found relatively low price + new developments in high sens, wide band, seems to me the future will go that direction.
So far the 91 sens Diatone plays quite nicely witha PP 100 watt.
Next test will be the 94 sensitivuty wide band.
has anyone here paired a high sens speaker with a 100 watt PP amplifier?
Did the magnet heat up?
Was there issues with vol control on preamp?
That is at 9 oclock vol, was there too much gain for the driver? |
I am listening to right now, a 15 that is 95db sensitivity, but only goes down to 38hz
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I would have figured a 15 goes BELOW 20hz.. Ok so the inner core also makes a huge dif on how low a 8 inch will go.
Look Vox/USA just reached out, So Vox is back on the table.
And thinking things over,,although I figured a 10 will go into the low 30hz's, and the 8 low 40's, might not hold water.
The 10 perhaps will go lower, however I've been living with dual 6/5's and have missed the lower bass for now 20 years, A 8 super high 98 sens will deliver the clean tight low, say maybe low30's, and thats allright with me. The Vox 8 looks to be ~~meticulously hand crafted~~ and this may result in a finer resolution of 100hz-say 1500 hz;s where most of my classical music falls.
So it looks like the Vox 8 will be the next step in this FR/High sens journey, which is all completely new to me.
Just got word from the Vox /USA dealer, he has employed all sorts of PP tubes with Vox and has nothing to complain about.
So ~~Ideally SET ~The Perfect Match~~, Due to finances (Defy upgrades well over $1k) SET is off the table.
Now I have to go ck my topic over on amps, see if anyone has a few ideas how i can tweak, the Defy to better match a high sens speaker.
See you guys over there. |
There has been a small revival in higher efficiency speakers and lower-powered amps, but, it remains a boutique community
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Guess what?
I just brought both low and high db efficiency together.
~~How is that even remotely possible??~~
You ask.
Well I got to thinkin.
I have so much cash invested in the Thors,,pondering while listening to the Single 8 wide band 94db, + Vifa tweet,,and started making some possibilites in my mind,,what if,,hummm as i stared at the Thors collecting dust in the corner,,what if,,,so I disconnected the Vifa from 1 pair of speaker cabels,,,,,and yep hooked up only the dual 6.5 bass section of the Thors, + the other speaker cabel going to the FR8.
BINGO!
Now i am a very happer camper.
Thought a bit more,,and I figured there is yet another FR 6.5 m that will outperform the FR8.
Not going to make a new face panel on the Thors to add the FR 6.5, instead wlll just do what i am doing right now, the 12x12x12 cabinet housing the FR8, sits right next to Thors, and sounds absoluetly seamless and just drop dead gorgeous.
Dual 6.5's blow any 8,10,12 single bass away at least in the 50hz-100hz.
I'm not so sure the Excel 6.5 goes below 50hz,..lets ck...be right back....
says 40hz, but i bet its more like 50hz at 80db.
Still thats a very nice full 50hz fora cello section, timpini, or jazz drum set.
So now i can salvage some of the Seas Thor,,which I was not prepared to toss away for a few $'s on ebay. + The huge Mundorf 8.2 silver gold cap on the W18 xover. + a massive Gertz copper foil coil.
And btw, there is no dome, midarange in the world that will voice mids likea FR, none, The Millenial Excel tweet is absolute trash, garbage vs a FR 6.5 in the mids.
So finally its all comming together.
WE just had to use our imaginative powers.
If we all work together as a team, we can bring our systems up to The New 21st C High Fidelity.
6.5 will order when i get some paypal debt down. The mods in my system past year has run into the $$$$$.
madea few mistakes like Vishay Zfoil Resistors , cost me $550 + $150 labor = $700, Vishay zfoils are for the Hubble Space tele and other orbital satellites. Not for amplifiers as some might recommend.
Takman Metal Rey's are the finest.
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I have efficient speakers, 100-104dB. Not sure. It can become an issue if, between amplifier and preamplifier, you have too much gain.
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wow 100+ db eff. Thats super sens.
My 8 Fr is like 94 the Thor 6.5 duals are 87db,
Both have paired just beautifully.
The FR 8 has limpy bass, but super rich mids, some highs.
The dual Seas Excel 6.5's have nice solid bass, with the massive Mundorf 8.2 Gold Silver Oil cap in the xover.
I now have the very best of both worlds,
The Excel W18 is the worlds finest midwoofer in production.
And a FR 8 voices the most gorgeous rich, full mids and some high roll off.
I am hearing things in the percussion upper fq's, which i have faintly heard with the Millenium tweeter.
Try puttinga large orchestra through a 1 inch dome mid-tweet,,,You can't.
The 8 FR has this capacity to voicea large orchestra, with ease and richness.
Richard is right, dome tweeters are trash/garbage. |
Such as ~all dome tweeters~ suffer from any number of weakness.??
The Millenium Tweeter is one of if not the best dome tweeter in production. Yet i've found its nothing vs a high quality FR driver in the same fq's.
Its ridiculous listening to a tiny 1.3 inch dome tweeter trying to gather up a full range orchestra in full power.
Its a joke.
Perhaps a opinionated bias on my part, but true. Dome tweeters are for jazz only. Light jazz at best.
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Full range drivers are always a complete compromise anyways where you sacrifice some aspect of the sound/characteristics to get what you want. It is actually incredibly difficult to engineer and manufacture a full range driver that really works well throughout the entire frequency range.
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Yeah I'm now firguring this weakness of a FR 8. Its super in the midrange,
But by itself, it does not have enough width and depth = soundstage was a bit ~flat~~
so i pondered what can i do in the meantime while i save up some audio buget cash for the Vox 8...hummm, well lets see, I have the Thors collecting dust,,,thinking kind of liked something about the thors,,but not sure what the issue was that made me slam the Thors,,,so i figured since i have a nice rich mids/some upper highs,,in the 8 FR,,thought i might as well disconnect the Millenium tweet ad run the other speaker cable to the Thors.
BINGO, Soundstage returned very nicely.
Just this moning wanted to ck what the dual W18's sounded all alone on one channel and the other with the FR8,,,,sure enough the Excel W18 magnesius 87 db 6.5's were a smash hit.
The lowes only go to 40hz. But what is so unique about this EXCEL W18 is the fq's between say 100-2000.
Here is where this driver really shines.
This super critcal range is voiced with no stress, no faatigue, just pure music.
I could not live without this W18 Excel. It simply must be in my system/
Now i note the Vox 8 is really FULL range, that driver rocks, I know after countless YT vid listening sessions.
How will the Vox8 intergrate with the dual W18's, Remains to be seen/= heard.
If the Vox seems a bit flat, I have no choice but to interfrate the dual W18's.
Will not mploya compression horn tweet either Davidlouis or 18 Sound.
The Vox 8 has stunning highs.
So taht saves me $400/DavidLouis or $650/18 Sound.
Its good i did not dump the Thors for asking $800, that would have been a gigantic mistake.
The new xovers, the cabinets, the dual W18's for $800?? I must have lost my mind.
, , The tweeters will be dumped on Ebay, brand new for some change/ going auction style.
As per Richard Gray, **I hate dome tweets*.
The dual W18's, really voice gorgeous in the upper bass, low mids.
Those W18's I could not live w/o.
The LII fast 8 FR is worth only what you pay for it.
The bass is a bit thin and mids a bit too warm = muddy. All my system is geared to be clear/ clean, that is i attempt to eliminate all *warm*.
The LII Fast 8 will have to do til I get the Vox8.
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hi-eff 1.5" tweeter (seas t35 are 96 db)
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When i order a new pair of Millenium, instead the far superior dome tweet is this Exotic T35 you mentioned.
Its 94db eff.
No doubt would have blown away the Millenium and thus , may have been completely satisfied and not looked any further into going FR.
But as it is, FR is on my agenda.
The T35's voice coil is only 1.3 inch.
Thats just too small to voice large full orchestra.
Just can not deliver the wide sound stage that i am looking for.
But indeed, the T35 Exotic might just be the exception to Richard's opinion about the weakness of all dome tweets.
But then the T35 is going up against the new compression horn tweets with 100++ sens.
I'm done with midrange tweets (1500-20k)
The new FR voices midrange with wider/deeper sound stage. A fullness with fidelity, purity. Accuracy.
Dome tweets squeeze the complex passages thougha minisclue 1-1.5 inch exit chamber. = Nice try, no cigar. |
I was with you in the wideband hi-eff thread, but this 10" theory makes little sense.
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Not sure what topic i posted, that i am now of the opinion, dual 6.5's superior toa single 8 or 10.
The Seas Excel W18 are so well behaved in 40hz- 1500hz. that really makes this a full rich voicing in this critical register.
On heavy complex passages of 50hz/lower as in some Schnittke symphonies when all hell breaks lose, the W18's do get a bit befuddled. 8 or 10 is better in this short passages.
But its not very often this attack of 50hz/lower makes its appearance in such an onslaught violence.
The W18 are not cheap, But as with anything in speakers, you get what you pay for. If you want the best gotta pay.
The newest Excel line is the Graphene, add another 25%. Beasts!
So yeah dual Excel W18;'s in my opinion delivers the fullest bass of any design in the 40+ hz- say through 2000. vs a single bass woofer,
Conside, how many 20-40 hz's are in your music?
Well jazz, maybe,,,, but orchestra, not enough in that range to be noticed that its missing.
The Excel W18's exhibit a purity in the lower mid's which is just laid-back, , natural, zero distortion/fatigue.
They are 87db, so only used as a ~filler~, adding a ~subtle~wider/deeper soundstage in those fq's = 40hz-2000hz. when joined with a FR. Preferably a 6.5 FR.
But since Vox offers the 6 inch FR same price as 8, I'll opt for the 8.
OK to recap,
A single 6.5 FR will not offer ~slam~ in the 40hz-60hz. You will need some bass configure.
A single 8 FR may offer some deeper bass in the 30hz-50hz, but not ~deep/rick/thick~ for some some critical recordings.
Bottom line: Dual 6.5's MM (skip the tweet) is the ideal bass configure for backing up a single FR 6.5 or 8.
A good quality FR does not require adding a compression tweet.
I'm kind of joining up ~best of both worlds~ some depth in the 40-60hz_ from the dual 6.5 low eff 87 db midbass, and then the critcal midrange of 100hz-5k with the high eff FR.
This configure may not work with the Vox, can't say til i acutally set it up.
But with a lower budget priced FR8 requires adding some sort of bass configure.
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