@phusis > Funny thread. Would active speakers be granted access to this experiment?
Blindjim > it is unconditional …. Any sort.. any tech… its about tactics not about types.
Albeit, mentioning brands and models has its value too. Especially if it/they coincide with the idea being demonstrated herein.
ATC, Meridian, Focus Aries, etc. would then all come in under the buy it new prospect I suppose. Albeit not at much of a discount.
Being more general seemed the best path as I try to put up threads that could help more than just myself.
Thanks.
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@salectric > I like JOND's suggestion too. A set of custom high efficiency speakers
Blindjim > Hmmm. I missed that, or misread it. Thanks for the reminder.
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@sbrownnw > the sound of string and double reed instruments will blow you away…. D48 with the ribbon tweeters brand new on ebay for $12000
> you could possibly call Sound Organization in Texas. They are the ProAc importers
Blindjim > Cool. I thought these 48s were more pricey than 12K. I might have misunderstood. Looking for a review I could not find one readily available online.
I’m guessing the R = same tower but with Ribbon tweet?
Wanna check out a special tweet, check out the Lanch 7 review in TAS from a while back. Whoa.
Thanks again.
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@twoleftears > Check out milpai's posts.
Blindjim > is that the one with the talk about a few other Pros? 30, 40, 48R etc.? it had 50+ posts. I read that earlier today or when I posted here last. The one I read made mention of various power options and I think was fairly recent too.
I’ve never run across any PROAC dealer in my state. Which is not a deal breaker as was said.
This thread of course, is really about how one would go about buying some pretty costly speakers in the semi dark.
Thanks.
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So far, the best “all in’ plan seems the buy used getting as much ‘built in’ value to performance ratio as is possible. Then blend accordingly..
Shaken. Not stirred.lol
Two more outlines are as interesting.
1 Get a kicking amp. Garnish to taste. An attractive direction especially given my ideas on audio. Although, its not germain and can’t be a true option for purposes of this topic’s thrust. Crap.
Of course, one can always rush out and use that as your own template. Nobody is gonna tell on you. lol
2 My own orig concept when first starting out here years back. Jump into the mix somewhere and step up accordingly, when appropriate. This one however has to be dis qualified as it doesn’t meet this thread’s focus.
Super. When was the last time you disqualified yourself? Lovely. Freakin’ lovely. Lol
To regain focus, where are you gonna pitch your 20K speaker buying bundle, and why?.
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@Johnk > I would buy a collectible horn based loudspeaker used for 20k
Blindjim > which ones are these? The new pr., or the used pr?
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@Inna > $20k buy great used speakers, it doesn't buy great new speakers, … so I would proceed with used after auditioning them
… If it fails - to hell with those speakers, there are others, not a big problem.
Blindjim > you always make good sense. Thanks much.
However no auditioning is or will be possible. If any were possible it would be in a completely dissimilar room with unknown electrics.
Hence the scenario.
I’ll take it your inference is roll the dice on the greater valued or higher priced used speakers instead.
BTW… if you are stepping up from a $7K MSRP pair to $26K new, pair, the perception is your position has been improved substantially at least, if not perfected.
@kgturner > I would think that if I had $20k to drop on speakers, I also have enough money to travel to listen to the used speakers.
Blindjim > thanks man.
yeah. I agree. BUT traveling as was said, ain’t part of this scenario.
Say someone is in a wheel chair, or on dialysis or the like. Or has a fear of flying. Etc. whatever. They can’t get there in person.
@shadorne
many thanks as usual. As for moving up in a brand model line up, you would certainly think as you said, only the basics of more would be in play at each step up the ladder.
Alas… this is not one of the proposed avenues outlined above.
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@inna > I think, you are leading yourself into a permanent trap. they are there and you are here - no connection.
Blindjim > you may well be right. I appreciate it. Thanks.
However, this is a hypothetical scenario. A ‘what would you do’ sort of poll.
Its no easy task to get the speakers you desire into your house using your gear, to audition them util they are well run in and then, make a decision.
There are way too many variables and obstacles on that road. Often, the Road Closed signs are put up making it impossible.
I get it better that we will tend to follow our instincts aided with the input from others and wind up making as good a guess as one can.
The issue, is the amount of money, more than anything. Its not a thing if the speakers are $200. $2000. Maybe $5000.
$20K is a chunk that gets people’s attention, usually and why I used that figure, and for a couple reasons. ;-).
@david_ten > D. You don't mention your exit strategy. For me that would be the 'catch.'
Blindjim > thanks Dave… really.
“Be grateful I could throw that kind of dough at speakers.”
Unquestionably.
Looks and area…
You’ve seen the new pr when you heard them on entry level or dissimilar gear. And you’ve seen pics of the used pr. In the Audiogon ad likely spoken with the seller a bit too. So that’s a non issue.
I figure if one is about to pitch 20 large at something, they’re probably OK with the Esthetics and fit to the room right off. No prob.
It’s the ‘exit strategy” I’m not getting. Huh?
@twoleftears > Buy the used, and if you don't like them, sell them on. You're out, what?, 1K for an extended home audition. Compare that to what happens, cost-wise, if you don't like the new ones.
Blindjim > wow. I sure missed thinking about that idea. THANKS.
The sole caveat is the thing that both pr are not uber popular. A more eclectic sort of choice. GamuT, Rogers, Sanders, ESP, etc. not Foacl, Sonus Faber, BW, ML, etc.
Still in all, a very good strategy.
Inna> I have found speakers for you. Get them and send me a bottle of single…
Blindjim > the 7’s? or Gershwins?
The 7s are a tad tall at 69 inches.
The Black swans are doable but due to this proposition, I’d have to spend the balance on other speakers… sub?
Nice pick. I’m guessing you’ve heard Lancias.
@randy-11 > good call. Tanks.
Blindjim > Not a huge panel fan at all. Always impressed with their near tangible imaging though.
As for SF, only the older Cremona’s slightly got me. Their esthetic however is killer.
I’ve heard the SF strats. Nice. But I’ll pass. Again. Lovely wood work.
Inna > utopia? Whoa.
Blindjim > You like ‘em tall, huh? Lol
I may have to rethink a few things given these options of yours and some others input here. Really.
My focus apparently has been narrowed greatly to size and designs.
Alnic and VAC remain on the close in radar. Although, Bermister, PSA BHK, ypsalong, T+A, Gryphon are in the cross hairs too. Depending on the speaker I could go half and half power train, or all tubes. Depending.
Thanks for opening my eyes more. This is a very good thing and why I put up these seemingly inane threads. I sure don’t know it all. I just think I do. Lol
Oh, and I now have a 40 ft. aluminum and steel ramp so access and egress is a breeze. When I move, I’ll have to take this baby with me. That will not be a breeze however.
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Paladin > … The second time was with a little known company (Voce audio) & man was this the real deal & I sold my Strad's!!!!
Go figure?
Blindjim > yep. I’m fast coming to a wider perspective on getting the most out of an investment. Which for me, is what this amounts to.
david_ten > 20K may or may not be significant to you. I don’t know.
> What happens if life throws a curve ball and you need to move the speakers
> Or you just feel like something different?
> Knowing or being comfortable with or ’projecting' the potential impact of a current audio component decision, into the future, is something I consider.
Blindjim > compelling David. Quite. Thanks. I appreciate the thoughtfulness… and apprehensional inkling.
> 20K? yep. That’s a real load for me. Very significant. Huge.
> Life’s curve balls have been hitting me where it hurts most for the last six or seven years with some regularity. It or these events have been strong to devastating. But here we are again looking to a future with a whole lot of promise. No word yet on its length or its possible severity. Must be a need to know affair.
> Change for the sake of change isn’t me too very much. Albeit I’m sure not immune to it. I’m aiming at speakers which will work with numerous amp types. I doubt seriously the first amp combo will be the Goldilocks connection. But we’ll see. Changes ought to follow with different amps. Not more squeakers.
Excellent and superb are terms that are malleable. They hang on the eyes and ears of the beholder. Boredom is a choice.
To say a rig’s sound is the best in the world, all one has to do is never hear anything else and it is.
> Exit… Looking forward….
I’ve devoted myself to living each day as it is. Being in the moment as I am able. Sure. Pay the insurance premiums. Set some aside. Fine. But stay in the here and now as much as possible. Keep the larder large.
Audio gear by and large loses so much equity so fast, if something drastic occurs well, I’ve been there and done that too. That’s how the last rig was converted into alarms, guns, lights, roofing, a new wall. Flooring. Cell phone. Personal universal GPS alarm.
That doesn’t even cover the medical concerns which are not fully completed.
Yet here we are. Heading for what is believed to be a brighter tomorrow.
That said, and being no spring chicken, my own experience says if it doesn’t kill me regardless its drama, somehow someway things will work themselves out. They have everyttime so far.
It doesn’t come how or when I’d care for it to arrive, but things always end up acceptably enough.
Will the interim be soft and smooth? Probably not. It will pass. Delbert McClinton put it in a song, “Nothing lasts forever”. He’s right. Good or bad.
I’m not gonna live waiting for the next shoe to drop.
I’ve no clue what tomorrow holds. I feel however I do know who holds it.
All I do is trust in that power, what ever it may be as much and often as I can. I’ve come to believe, if you like what you are getting keep doing what you are doing. If not, change what you can, and without exception, the only thing I can change is me or my perspectives. This works. So far. So good. The past few decades anyhow.
This thread is changing a couple perspectives already.
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@sbrownnw > ProAc D48 and be done
Blindjim > I know less about this line of speakers than possibly any other. Thanks for the input.
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@inna > amp first… speakers will come.
Good call! Could be.
Perhaps. Everything is on the table presently any approach ought to be considered IMO.
Both amp & speaker are needed as nothing in house exists which could be considered upper range audio. Mid, maybe. If everyone was drinking.
.
Ultra high end, if they were drinking a lot.
Only a pr of former now antique (‘96) Phase tech PC 10.5 3 way towers, are here and they desperately need refurbishing.
Several two way stand mounts that are decent. IMHO, very enjoyable. Not what I’d refer to as superior. Just pleasant.
A lethargic and lengthy tact would be the usual ‘stepping stone’ plan.
Stick with something reasonably popular in power and speakers as pre owned, and in combo around 10 – 20K… and go from there.
EX. Sophia III + BHK stereo amp.
It would be a test bed for new wires too. Briefly.
This might be the most efficient path. It would certainly be educational. Again, but on a far more current premise.. It would dull the ‘Go get something right now man!’ urges.
Flipping both later, even one at a time that way ought not to pose too tremendous an obstacle. Or loss.
As long as I stick to buying used or get superb deals on new. Albeit, brandy new is fast losing its luster IMHO.
I’d remind you it will be some bit of time yet before I can start looking for the UPS or FEDEX driver. Easily, no sooner than next spring, probably.
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@simao
Thanks much.
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BTW.... HAPPY THANKSGIVING LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. BE GRATEFUL FOR SOMETHING, AS THERE IS MUCH TO BE GREATFUL FOR, EVEN IF YOU DON'T THINK SO.
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@jon_5912 > time to buy blind. It's when you are confident that you're getting something more for your money than you'll get otherwise
Blindjim > we are on the same wavelength there.
> “Performance isn't even relevant if the look isn't what they want. “
Blindjim > that was me. And still a bit. Though I’m determined this time not to let esthetics play as large a role as performance.
I’m not keen on boxes per se. just big rectangles don’t do much for me. However…
Normally I would not ever consider this level of expense. But its getting late. Chances are I likely can, so why not?
> advantage of dealer support.
Blindjim > there’s only one outlet I’m aware of nearby. I’ll have to see soon a bit more intently. Others range from 40 to 75 mi. the lines being carried by al of them is not fully clear but at one outlet, its fairly expressive. Radhu, Magico, KEF, ??? not sure what the rest are up to lately.
Many around here are or were, supposed dealers but did not stock inventories. Or had one bare bones setup like a receiver, CDP, and a pr of speakers. Always with the aclade “we can get you whatever!”.
Things might have changed of late. I will look into this more.
I’m a mite concerned of any real tangible support even at 40mi. though.
Overall, that is good sense.
Actives seem to me to be like a closet. Not much room to coax the sound much to something better. But then as with any number of other elclectic audio pieces. Dunno. Never had any. Had the shot to hear some but my then bias flatly resfused the offer. Listened to BW 800s & 801s instead. Albeit, driven by Meridiaian elecs.
Hopefully I’ll fall into something good. Like a middle range unit. And target its igher end sibling. We’ll see..
Good thoughts. Thanks.
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Life is not a riddle to be puzzled out, but a mystery to be lived. R Kippling.
Fear is a big deal. It will keep one from driving on the wrong side of the road, stepping off tall buildings, or spending too much time with one’s mother in law.
Fear can also run a person’s life if not kept in check. We’ve all got it. Or them at some time or other.
This scenario’s impetus was to delve into how deep the drives are. Fear vs compulsion. Both are hopefully tainted with prudence and some restraint beyond what the wallet declares at the moment. Credit lines not with standing. Lol
Its all about how deep into the pond one wants to wade. Risk vs reward. Or merely settle on only known factors.
“the lure of easy money has a very strong appeal”
buying pre owned at a significant discount is that lure for nervous ‘philes. I’ve done it. Likely will do it again.
IMHO, the strongest petition here and possibly the best view point, seems to be if you are OK with buying used, then buy the most predictable or supposed amount of performance you can readily afford. If you believe in that product, seller, and cost, pull the trigger! Period & paragraph.
Then all one has to do is pray. Pray we can withstand the carrier and shipping incidentals. Albeit as a reminder, the carrier is the major unknown in any out of area transaction, be it on new from a dealer or used from a dealer or seller. Always.
Of all the factors, carriers scare me most. I once worked in that industry and saw how they manage containers. Yikes.
If fear of shipping is immense, and the cost of goods, great, spend more for faster transit. I see that aspect as more ‘insurance’.
Do your due diligence, buy some Tums. Watch the tracking, and setup notifications for descrepencies, and all will be well.
hopefully.
If it ultimately don’t fit. Flip. Easy peasey.
Thanks all, for the enlightening commentary. And or, any which may be forthcoming.
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soundsrealaudio
Cheers!
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@Inna > Gryphon or Ypsalon.
Blindjim > I hear you. loud and clear. I sincerely appreciate each and every insight provided me thus far. Several have been eye openers. Would never have suspected them otherwise most likely. Certainly would not have given them as much credence.
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russbutton
thanks for the original view point.
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@kollamala
Agreed. Its off topic though. Room is not at issue. The questions are buying tactics and best possible presumptions regarding amp > speaker synergy.
But thanks for the input.
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@gcp
Hypothetically speaking, which is the thrust of this topic, thank you. especially for the link. Cool.
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@bassdude2
Thanks a lot.
@cycles2
Appreciate it.
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The choices are all well received and certainly appreciated. And as your own examples of purchases, fine enough.
But….
Again, here is THE ‘CATCH!!!!
What would you do buying speakers in the semi, or total blind, go with a partial known new speaker , or shoot for higher value in used speakers While spending around 20 thousand bucks.
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@ggc > go with op one as it would be more value.
Blindjim > I’m fast coming to that point of view, despite the spkr I feel I would prefer based on no tangible exp with it/them.
Never heard them. Never even seen them in reality. Postulating on pure articles and owner accounts and spec sheets.
Yet, I still think to myself, hey now, those should be great!.
Amazing. Huh? Damn near stupid when you stop and think about it.
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@gsmith5 > “…Go To Audio shows $600 ticket and $500 room is small price to invest in a $20,000 decision
Blindjim > Absolutely golden!! Very nice.
It seems a very logical and prudent direction if one is gonna get that deep into the pond.
Albeit as well, or in addition following that would be to see the item desired if not shown at an audio convention.
This is the most logical path. Even if it meant spending $5K in travel exp. Given amp (s) could be in order for someone too.
Likely chances are both desired items, speakers, and or amp (s) won’t be at the same place at the same time. Of course. Most o’ the time it just be’s that way.
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@stargazer3 > commission a 3rd party expert to put it all together and then check his or her results out.
Blindjim > that is indeed original and fantastic input. Thanks so very much!
My issue with that is I would have to completely DIVORCE myself from my own ego.
Chances are as well, honing in on exactly what I want esthetically and sonically could be a pretty extended ordeal.
Taking ‘ego’ out of the equation would be most difficult.
> “…one can take a gamble or an educated gamble and buy the second hand speaker blind based just on reviews”.
Blindjim > yep. That is the number one answer IMO so far. Adding in owner commentary and their exp with past speakers.
I’ve done that trip more than a Little with other gear and the results thehn were regularly very good. Albeit, it was with items under $10K retail. Always.
As much as option 2 leads the pack, the ‘travel’ factor makes just as much sense. If not more in an attempt to settle the mind’s intermittent second guessing free floating onslaughts that will fly later on.
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@Inna
Agreed. Although the plan was original. Using other ears to satisfy my own is problematical. Likely extensive. Unpredictable. Like the toss of a coin. Maybe, maybe not. It would depend then too on the resources of the ‘expert’ as to what he could haul in or arrange elsewhere.
Agreed on knowing more of the hand holding the pen correlates better to what is said in a review. For one, Art Dudley has yet to steer me wrong. I seem to have agreed with a couple others more often than not too.
I would not be above building or hiring someone to construct crates and cutting insulation to fit at these prices.
Thanks very much for the tweeter input.
I’ve been wondering on that tweeter longevity since reading that expose on the 7. Sounded fabulous.
In fact, it arose another thought on driver life too. Surrounds. X overes, etc..
Sorry, this is well off topic but germain to the 7s and other options listed herein.
Do you know how much overall height of speaker plays a part in adopting them to a particular room with standard 8.5 to 9.5 high cielings? I can’t imagine getting another place with ceilings very much higher than that.
never bothered to investigate the relationship of tall speakers to ceiling heights. Always stuck to units of 48 inches or less. Mostly 40in. +- usually.
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Markalarsen Go to RMAF. Confirm your initial impressions.
Blindjim > second best idea here. Thanks much. It actually appears if not RMAF, something akin to it is a necessity, and part of doing business if the investment is significant. At least IMHO.
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Inna > Another idea is to send a message to Dimitris of Ypsilon and ask him about speakers that he prefers. Not only his electronics is among the very best he also records live music. Flemming of Gryphon makes his own speakers but I would probably ask him too. He likes big scale music.
Lansches will unlikely be the best speakers for orchestral music and hard rock
Blindjim > excellent idea. I keep forgetting or forgoing any notion of touching base with the maker as to fundamental things like whose peakers they use to voice their gear. Preffs. Especially when user replaceable tubes are a part of the product.
I gotta say I can’t get it in my head to use Gryphon Diab with highly resolute speakers. Warmish? Probably. But extremely revealing? Likely nope. But then again, these are my fundmental unproven biases or theories and matching preffs. To go with Gryphon, I’d seek purely amps. Not an INT. at that point one should I guess look at Constellation, BAT SS, Vitas, etc.
Ones which have my close attention are Bermister, T+A, Nagra, VAC & ypsalon of course.
On spkr Ht. its probably like having the speaker close to any other surface. Or wall, issues with Reinforcement or reflections arise.
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@Inna > You want the see-thru quality not a fog. This doesn't mean unbalanced and bright, no. And it costs a lot.
Blindjim > OK. I’m forced to agree on paper. In theory. Principally however, what I’ve found as resolution increases, my catalog of CDs begins to diminish. Why? Mediocre to even decent recordings lose attraction. They simply do not sound at all worth listening to with any regularity, or at times ever. At least not on the main system.
Well, let me clarify, at least in past system efforts with what was affordable then..
If the price to have highly or highest resolution gear is to severely limit the library, I’m not too sure I want to pay it.
I’d not want to be spinning or clicking on only 100 or so albums out of 2400.
Just thinking out loud here…
Lingering curiosity says maybe, the gear I used previously which sent me indirectly to ‘tube land’ was not refined in its ability to peer thru the ‘fog’ but was etched and bright. I suppose that’s possible. AKA VSA VR4JR, BW. Krell KAV 250. Lamp cords and bell wire for cabling.
These inadvertently showed me the impact of a tube pre. It also told me to step up the game on the amp, so the BAT vk500 replaced the entry level Krell. And so on yada, yada.
With tube power pre & mono amps and more educated implementation of NOS tubes, PLC, racks, stands, iso, room treatments, and cabling I found as much resolution there, as I heard from friends pass labs xa gear & ML panels. Even at dealers showing more expensive outfits. (ayre + Wilson + transparent) Or other similar SS powered setups. Yet glass seemed to have a dimension SS did not, everytime.
It also allowed me to playback more content. Sure, bad stuff still sounded poor. Dry. Thin. Bright. Or just uninvolving. Immediately. But it could be tolerated.
Consequently ‘ultra’ uber resolute equipment as I read thru articles ‘in between the lines’ or as it is stated vividly by the writer, really concerns me on a few fronts.
Perhaps in the levels I’m investigating, my stated fears/concerns are nonsense. Dunno.
I do know too much of a good thing, is too much of a good thing, fairly often, and a system needs matching on more levels or areas than merely resolution. One can’t just belly up to the bar and ask for the most revealing source, power train, speakers, and cabling expecting all will be well when strung together. It would astonish me were all of that possible.
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inna
as always, thanks much!
Until digital and analog are on par with each other, there will be a need to match the system. Not necessarily to ameliorate or attenuate, but to border the line where acceptability & resolution reside.
Past EXP says there will be loads of ‘they are here’ and or ‘you are there’ info, if the recordings possess it. So if, high res defines those artifacts as primary elements, then I know which way to proceed… apart from the voices of the power amp it/themselves. .a significantly transparent loudspeaker resting on neutrality is quite do able. In fact, desired.
Until further notice, I’ve determined a nearly critically accurate source which lands close to musical, works well for me if the pre and amp (S) are resolute but have a tendency to naturalness as their main strengths. .I feel all of the power amps you’ve spoken of and I’ve an interest in, follow those guidelines be they SS or glass.
I’m sure, all will work out as it should. I’m simply not a card carrying detail oriented freak. But an AIR groupie. (acquired or attained, Illusionary reproduction).
Life ain’t like school. In school you get the lesson first then the test. In life, you get the test first, and possibly, its lesson. This is just one more effort in being educated by life. I likely just need to set aside my biases and groundless prejudices a tad more often going forward. I’ll keep an eye on those areas.
Buying used for greater performance, and travel are the two predominate things brought to greater focus here… so far, and that’s a good thing.
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Soundsrealaudio > After drinking this over I have made my decision. I think I will talk the dealer down to half price. Tell him since I am uncertain about how it will sound in my system with my superior tube gear I am hesitant to drop big bucks.
@Soundsrealaudio
Sounds fantastic… if the dealer is drinking as much as you, more if possible, so things should work out favorably. For someone.
Probably a good idea to hand over the check and get them onto the truck before he or she sobered up. Things often look very different when all the bottles and glasses are empty.
Blindjim > all in all, should I find myself in a circumstance like that, I’ll take it under advisement. Thanks much.
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