2020 update : JC Verdier La Platine


A recent encounter with a JC Verdier dealer as well as a recent Audiogon discussion thread led to the start of this thread. He was in my house updating my La Platine which had been in storage for ten years with thread and oil. While he has high regards for the deck, his newer clients nevertheless prefer a Techdas iii than an 'old' La Platine. Given the proliferation of expensive decks in the past dozen years, La Platine has become very much under-appreciated. 

It's clear to me that the influence of the La Platine is everywhere to be found. Specifically, the magnetic suspension system that was employed 30+ years ago. Even SOTA offers their newer decks with mag. lev. features. And if you read this review: https://www.callas-audio.nl/Callas%20Platine%20Mod%20Kit%20Review.pdf, the Continuum Caliburn uses the same concept, which was not acknowledged in Fremer's review, albeit with more sophisticated , and expensive, execution.

It is also clear to me that there is much misunderstanding of the workings of the La Platine. I for one have contributed to this. The motor of the La Platine, for example, has been much maligned. The thread drive is another aspect of the turntable that have been described as inferior. With regard to the motor and thread drive, I have been set straight by Chris @ct0517 and Lyubomir @lbelchev. Experimenting with the different types of silk threads, the tightness to the platter  and a renewed understanding of the soundness of the Philips motor have been rewarded with better dynamics and transparency. 

The funny thing is that during the past two years of re-engagement with audio, I have questioned ownership of every components in my arsenal except the La Platine. It has always been a keeper. I wonder if La Platine owners would contribute to celebrating this 'old' deck with tales, advice, and insights?

Cheers!
ledoux1238

Showing 6 responses by lbelchev

@lewm
Besides other problems with that, that construction would also tend to be a cause of speed irregularity, as stylus drag waxes and wanes over the course of an LP.
Lewm, here is a nice explanation from the manufacturer Jean Verdier:

"Now, let us approach another point: Dr. G.W. explains that playing a record with a stylus consumes energy and that this energy is variable on account of the changes of musical modulation, resulting in drive speed variations of the platter.

That is absolutely correct and it is one of the basic problems facing the turntable designer. The author than explains how to remedy this: the motor must renew the energy as swiftly as possible to keep constant speed, that is the reason for using a low inertia motor. I think that if this were true, no turntable could work well, because no motor is good enough. Fortunately, we can make use of more powerful tools to settle that problem.

The first tool is well known, it is the platter’s inertia. The heavier platter, the more it works to counter momentary variations in speed, but the challenge is to make a very thick and massive platter which doesn’t ring like a bell.

The second tool is less well-recognized than the first: the constant-coupled brake system. Since the player stylus consumes variable amounts of energy, we have to mask that consumption by permanently consuming much more energy by the use of a brake. The larger the ratio between the energy consumed by the brake and the energy consumed by the stylus, the better turntable work.

To be clear: only a few models of turntables have this device. To understand the concept better, have a look at a Thorens TD 124 which uses a brake with Foucault’s current excited by a permanent magnet, or EMT 927 which has a completely mechanical brake consisting in washers placed around the axle with the capability of adjusting the pressure and therefore the braking action.

On my turntable, the brake is present, but invisible to the casual eye-it is furnished by the axle and bearing. The two parts are unusual in their very large dimensions. The two facing surfaces of about 60 cm2 separated by lubricating viscous oil form the brake."

We can see this brilliant principle in 2020 - CS Port Analog Disk Player LFT1 (£48,000.00): "In LFT 1, the rotation control is not performed, and the constant speed rotation is left to the high moment of inertia of the 27 kg platter, creating a rotation free from unnecessary vibration caused by the control. Only the positive direction force is applied from the motor, but by using a coreless motor with LESS MOMENT OF INERTIA, the influence of the vibration is reduced."

There are more hidden things, but modern audiophiles are looking for exactly 33.33333 ....


Cheers


Albert, my two cents about La Platine speed stability:

1. Check the axle adjustment. If you use a steel ball check the resistance point between the ball and the spindle. The steel ball should be in contact with the spindle, almost but without pressure. If you do not use a steel ball, the axle should not be in contact with the spindle.  In this case just catch the resistance point and than slightly return back the axle via the adjustment screw. Therefore some play will be necessary (60 to 80th of an inch is sufficient) .The still ball is not absolutely necessary. You can chose to remove it if you want and it is not necessary in such case to modify the adjustment of the axle. If you want to change the mat and/or record clamp it is necessary to adjust the axle.

2. "One of the Verdier’s little foibles: the bottom of the main bearing is designed to leak oil! With an inverted bearing, gravity causes lubricating oil to flow to the bottom of the shaft, leaving the top part dry. Over tune, this oil will eventually make its way to the bottom of the axle where it collects in the axle base cup... If all this conjures up visions of getting out dip-sticks to check oil levels before going for a spin, don’t worry. The oil reservoir is generous, and the rate of seepage low. Also, as the oil is thick, it tends to cling to the sides of the bearing. All the same, this turntable needs rather more maintenance than your average deck..." James M Hughes, "HI-FI NEWS - February 1999"
So, every few weeks 0.5-1.0 cc of oil should be added to the reservoir next to the spindle to keep the axle lubricated. Use the supplied oil or Mobil 15W-30.

Enjoy
@ct0517  Yes, I agree about the ball.
Platine Verdier users have debated a lot about the advantages and disadvantages of using a steel ball. Removing it is from our point of view the best solution to preserve the turntable from noise and vibrations.
Instructions manual
My bearing does not leak too. But it is open inverted bearing -  the oil
flow very slowly to the bottom of the axle.  It's just physics.

Recharging the bearing with oil should be a monthly routine. The consumption of oil is dependent on temperature an how much the turntable is used.
Instructions manual


Albert,
The spindle head of the stock Philips, low torque, motor....

The Verdier uses a powerful, High torque, low inertia, core-less DC regulated motor.

And I feel it is the electrics of the motor assembly that is at fault for speed instability.

I somehow think that a motor with a servo system works best.

Here's a logical explanation from Charles Michlin (Azzolina Audio): "In the era when the Verdier controller was developed the LM317 voltage regulator was probably an advanced device. However today there is a greater understanding of motor control. A motor acts as a generator in operation and this back EMI causes error in controllers like the LM317. As a result they fall in and out of regulation erratically. There are newer chips designed for motor control which are immune to this problem. There are also circuits of greater sophistication which can self correct speed variations without the complications and problems of closed loop feedback."

1. Changed the motor from the low torque philips to a high torque Maxon motor.
@pani,

The motor used in the Platine Verdier is a powerful, HIGH torque, LOW inertia, core-less DC regulated motor.
Low INERTIA is very very different from low TORQUE!

You can check: HIGH TORQUE MOTORS WITH LOW INERTIA :-)

"First of all, it is "low inertia" motor. In the case of Philips unit, that term refers to a very special technology. In "low inertia" motor, the turning part-the rotor-consist of a cooper coil, the turns almost parallel to the rotation axle cutting the field lines of the magnetic circuit, excited by a permanent magnet which is totally fixed. The weight of the rotor is reduced as much as possible, so the inertial tendency is small relative to the work provided by the motor."
J.C.Verdier

We can see this brilliant principle in 2020 - CS Port Analog Disk Player LFT1 (£48,000.00): "In LFT 1, the rotation control is not performed, and the constant speed rotation is left to the high moment of inertia of the 27 kg platter, creating a rotation free from unnecessary vibration caused by the control. Only the positive direction force is applied from the motor, but by using a coreless motor with LESS MOMENT OF INERTIA, the influence of the vibration is reduced."