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16 ohm speakers: any amp sounds better with more resolution. speaker cables less critical.

First,
  
Thanks to anyone who responds with whatever answers/opinions/advice comes from this. I'm retired, covid bound, Donna is taking care of everything holiday related, too much time, always curious.
..................................

I happened across this in an old thread started by Ralph (atmasphere)

"Sixteen ohms, BTW is a very simple means for getting more resolution out of your system, as nearly every amplifier made sounds better on 16 ohms than it will on 4 or 8 ohms. Speaker cables become far less critical too."

My speakers are 16 ohms (Electrovoice horn tweeter, horn mid, 15" woofer, crossover, rheostats, from 1958).
Extremely efficient, I have more than enough power. Amp, now and in the past all had 16 ohm taps.
Of course I can hook them up to my Cayin's 8 ohm taps now and listen, but facts, opinions, advice, to learn is good.
...........................


Lots of Questions? 

1. why/how do 16 ohm speakers make amps sound better, with more resolution? 

2. why speaker cables less critical? perhaps this is why I/we don't hear cable differences in my system?
I'm using my homemade twisted pair of cat 5 now (8 individually insulated small diameter solid core).

3.  to get exterior bias control: use 8 ohm tap for my 16 ohm speakers? (get alternate amp 4/8 no 16 tap,)

lose advantage(s)? 'sounds better'; 'more resolution'; 'speaker cables less critical'? 

this says slightly more mids:

http://blog.hughes-and-kettner.com/ohm-cooking-101-understanding-amps-speakers-and-impedance/

I can fine tune my speakers via their two rheostats: 'presence' and 'brilliance', so not really an issue for me.

4. Importance of Bias Control

how important is Bias? (I don't care about heat, power output, or tube life, just as bias affects sound). Frankly, using vintage tube receiver Fisher 500C, 800C and Fisher Mono Blocks 80Z, I have never checked or adjusted bias. I just put the control in the center position when cleaning insides/controls.

I have always used 16 ohm taps of various vintage tube and SS amps and newer current tube Cayin A88T. (original version, the only one with 16 ohm taps). It's bias control is internal, versions with safer external bias do not have 16 ohm taps.

5. replace their two rheostats? ('presence' and 'brilliance': copper wire-wound on ceramic body, mid/neutral position).
I have them in neutral position now, l/r frequency response equal.   

do I need to keep rheostats 16 ohms? use 8 ohm rheostat with 16 ohm drivers?

sales sheet says 16 ohm, but data sheet shows range 1.0 to 5k ohms. 

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/303/controls_rheostats-1228697.pdf

does that mean, the drivers will draw whatever they draw (varies thru frequency range anyway), doesn't matter as long as rheostat range starts 1.0 ohm, extends past say 100.0 ohms?

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/303/controls_rheostats-1228697.pdf

...........................................


thanks, Elliott











elliottbnewcombjr

Showing 8 responses by charles1dad

charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,222 posts
 
Hi Elliot,
I’ve been extremely happy with these speakers for over 11 years. 14 ohm impedance and 94 db sensitivity. Designed to be very compatible with SET and OTL amplifiers in addition to conventional higher power amplifiers.

I originally drove them with push pull 100 watt (60 watts in triode mode) KT 88/6550 mono blocks and this was a really good pairing. When I tried an 8 watt 300b SET with the speakers, that was it. I immediately heard superb tone (A step up from very good tone) timbre and a more natural or organic sound quality. The presentation is impressively realistic , tactile with a high degree of emotional engagement. This SET and speaker combination pulled me deeper into the musical performance. 
Charles
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,222 posts
 
Hi Raul,
I don’t question your experiences and the subsequent choices you’ve made as a result. You have extensive exposure to many fine tube components. I’ve extensive exposure to a variety of highly regarded transistor components. For your needs/objectives you have determined that solid state is the superior option. I ultimately was more persuaded by tubes. As dictated by our respective experiences we’ve chosen different paths to follow. That’s no problem at all. I respect your input on this forum.
Charles
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,222 posts
 
Hi Raul,
What caused me to respond  to your posts yesterday was what seem to be a rather dismissive and very broad brush assumptions.
1 "Low knowledge level audiophiles "
2 You referred to "Warm, sweet,relaxed" as ridiculous adjectives used to describe the sound of music in a listener’s audio system.
3 Your assertion that tube electronics are less capable of reproducing the true characteristics of near field music but solid state electronics are superior in this regard.

I feel you were insulting a number of members on this forum. Low knowledge level? How did you reach that conclusion? Is it because they may prefer tubes versus transistors (As is your preference)?

I wanted to point out that terms such as warm, sweet and relaxed do certainly represent useful and meaningful adjectives when describing what one can hear. Every bit as worthwhile as harsh, bright and aggressive. All these adjectives are relevant and accurate descriptors depending on context and circumstances.

I simply have a different perspective/opinion than you and wanted to express that based on my experiences. Raul I understand you re explaining and describing your near field listening impressions. But you wrote it with the implication that you have more of this type of exposure than others on this thread. Why would you make that assumption?
There are I suspect folks on this forum with similar live near field listening experiences, probably more than you realize. Nonetheless I appreciate your contributions and sharing of your thoughts on this open forum.
Charles

charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,222 posts
 
Hi Elliot, 
1 My speakers are Coincident Total Eclipse II and have a 14 ohm impedance (10 ohm minimum).
2 I played and studied trumpet many years ago in my youth and was not  a professional trumpeter by any stretch. But this experience was impactful and permanently sealed my admiration for skilled musicians (It isn't easy😊).
3 I'm not Korean. 
4  I can definitely understand your deep appreciation for Hugh Masekela. He was a master of the flugelhorn.

"Wonderful and warm sounding  trumpet" , exactly! 
As @ mijostyn observed, trumpets actually have a warmer tone live (No microphone Just pure horn) than speakers are capable of reproducing.  Such a good point as there's a slight harshness or edge imposed you'd never hear live and up close.
Charles 
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,222 posts
 
Hi Raul,
As a former trumpeter I agree this instrument is certainly capable of sounding harsh, bright and aggressive. Believes me that the trumpet can definitely sound "warm,sweet and relaxed" . Just depends on what the musician wants to express or communicate while p,aying. And this is with the instrument in my hands. Can’t be anymore near field than that.

One of my former instructors who was a professional trumpeter (And fugelhorn) could play with such full, fat and warm tone (This is how he described it BTW) simply emotional and gorgeous harmonic color. So these terms aren’t "ridiculous adjectives " as you wrote, quite the contrary.

Raul having heard the trumpet intimately (And many instruments) for years ultimately pushed me toward tubes for what was a more realistic reproduction. I  respect your preference for solid state electronics. I’m just providing my own experience with very close proximity to live instruments. Tubes can impressively reproduce both the dynamic bite and the gentle sweetness instruments are capable of.
Charles
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,222 posts
 
I agree with lewm in that Nelson Pass used his First Watt designs to intentionally deviate from their siblings throughout the model line.
The J2 was designed as a single ended transistor amplifier using only 1 output power transistor per channel. Just as a SET amplifier utilizes only 1 output tube per channel.

So it makes sense that it will deliver less power into a lower impedance load if the circuit was optimized for an 8 ohm impedance speaker load. Some First Watt amplifiers are push pull and will behave differently. Basically whatever Nelson Pass was  trying to achieve with the given model. Each F.W. amplifier is quite distinct.
Charles
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,222 posts
 
Hi @danvignau, 
Reading Ralph's clearly written explanation it isn't difficult for me to understand why this is the case. As of yet I haven't come across a contrary explanation that reasonably refutes him.

An easier high impedance speaker load (Less current demand) would seem quite beneficial for all amplifiers. I don't see the rationale that a more difficult lower impedance (Higher current demand) to drive is a more positive circumstance for an amplifier. 
Charles 
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,222 posts
 
Hello Elliot,
I don’t believe that you’ve missed anything. The Eric Alexander video wasn’t particularly compelling but was more about volume differences.
Ralph’s explanation to you regarding the advantages of high impedance speaker load was more thorough, reasonable/logical and I feel better supported by listening experiences. Less distortion as well as diminished demands on the driving amplifier (Power/current) seem like unquestionable positive factors.

Ralph concludes that the sound quality becomes more relaxed and with increased detail rather than etched or lean, he is right.
Charles
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