$10k DAC in a 3k system?


Hello all,

Ive owned the same audio rig for 8 years or so (Rega Mira 3 amp> Rega RS5 speakers) 

My source into the Mira3 amp is a headless fanless micro windows7pc I built running jrivermc> musichall Dax 25.3

i am reading some phenomenal things about some of these Dacs in the 10K range ( Chord Dave, Ayre, Lampizator,PS Audio, etc).

My question is a simple one: the other pieces of my system sound great to me, but are at a much lower price point collectively than one of the dacs mentioned above. Do I need to be concerned about my Amp/speakers being fast/dynamic enough to facilitate a Dac like the Dave? Or could I plug a top notch Dac like that into my system and hear the same things I've heard described in the reviews (but on a relative level) ?

thanks in advance for any insight!
dla123
Thanks, Richard (Ricred1).
In my humble opinion one part doesn’t equal same performance.
No question about it. There are of course countless variables and tradeoffs that contribute to the overall performance of a design. And, hypothetically speaking, even if the entire design of a DAC from each of two manufacturers was totally identical from an electrical standpoint, the two components still would not be likely to perform in an identical manner. Even differences in how signals are routed within the printed circuit board, and how the board itself is constructed, can affect performance significantly. That is especially true when digital signals are involved, which have very high frequency components associated with their risetimes and falltimes (i.e., the amount of time it takes the signals to change between their two voltage states). And even more so when that circuitry is in close proximity to analog circuitry.

The kinds of effects that can be involved are not even well understood by many practicing EEs. Which is why a textbook and course on High Speed Digital Design that were created by a noted authority on such matters, which I took in connection with my work a couple of decades ago, was sub-titled "A Handbook of Black Magic."

Best regards,
-- Al

@ricred1

+1

Power supply design sign is very important especially if you want to avoid power conditioners, fuses, after market power cords and all kinds band aids. (Another discussion for another time might be why high end boutique manufacturers so often get power supply design aspects so badly wrong - creating a "band-aid" market)

The Benchmark DAC3 and their ABH2 amp achieve performance standards that exceed everything else and one of the reasons is a Switched Mode Power Supply. In fact there is an interesting article devoted to debunking the myth that Switched Mode Power Supplies are noisy. I am not sure I entirely agree, as I have found SMPS to be troublesome in the past, however John Siau explains why SMPS done correctly can lead to tremendous reduction in the noise floor.

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/152143111-audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are...

In light of these advances I find myself forced to accept that linear Power Supplies may be easier to build correctly but SMPS done right can be SOTA and better than everything else.

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/inside-the-dac2-part-3-power-supplies

30db additional reduction in noise floor over a linear power supply is a major paradigm shift in audio design!

 almarg
Hi Al! long time no see. lol
Pay attention to almarg
posts. Especially his words on matching system impedances.

audioman58
+1. correct. Source is the primary key to any good, great or fantastic system

Wow. There’s an immense amount of great info and texture here, despite the philosophies. I like the Oppo sug, but would opt for the 203 and a DAC vs the 205 alone. If 4K video interested me at all. With a good DAC it is a capable disc spinner.

OP…
I did not hear you actually had $10K burning a hole in your pocket. If so, I apologize. On the premise that you actually do have a wad ready to pitch in them my exp says this:

Crap in and crap out. Though, do preceed prudently.

Outstanding speakers will never make up for crap signal integrity, or so so signal (system) construction. Lack of adequate power, poor room acoustics, etc.

Top notch front ends affixed to capable speakers will always perform better than lower end, or entry level front ends attached to superb speakers. Great front ends however are made up of more than just the source.

Though, I’d not rec you drop it all, speculatively or in fact on merely a DAC.
Here is why….

$10K DACs don’t sound twice as good as $5K DACs, or five times better than $2K DACs. But, each will sound different. I guarantee it.

if you’re front end isn’t up to the task of providing revealatory, engaging experience, to the speakers, then what? Speakers ain’t magical critters. They appear to become magical, when the signal and room deliverd to them is unblemished.

I’ve heard more than substantial systems. Rigs with $40K speakers plus a pair of subs running in total $56K. applying different $10K DAC solutions to such rigs has shown me first hand you’re gonna get different results. From various DACs. Different ain’t always better but it sure is different.
Always.

It was in these sorts of $70K to $100K rigs however, one could easily hear the diffs between DACs which cost $5K, $10K, and $20K.

Unless, there is more room in the wallet for updating the balance of the system, or very very soon, there definitely will be, I’d refrain from dropping every dime of the 10K into a DAC right now.

What to do: is all about your own goals, and how deep you want to wade into the audio waters. Also, just how soon you will strive to achieve them. Pre-owned gear aids the system building effort tremendously.

The issue is not that in a year or two your ??? new DAC will sound worse, it is that other DACs for less than what you spent will sound as good or better and maybe have more functionality in time.

The wheels of progress seem to be slowing down on the Digital vehicles hitting the market these days. Yet they do continue to turn and the associated peripherals attached to the “DAC du jour” can make one sound superb, or keep it from an outstanding level of performance.

in one system I wrote a review on these pages about a couple years back, a $5K DAC IMHO, sounded better than a $10K DAC. BC DAC vs Mitner. Although, the BC DAC was configured better with a $2K SPDIF IC from a Gordon Rankin USB converter, and the BC had a Nordost Valhalla PC on it. Don't recall the DAC to preamp cable exactly.


check the review for more info

A variety of DAC sellers/makers are catching up to the top tier DAC performers and as such provide a far, far greater cost to performance ratio than ever before.

Merely keeping a close eye on impedance matching throughout the system will yield outstanding results. Thanks again for that info, Al.

I’d actually spread the funds around, IF, 10K was the end of the cash pile.

Maybe think about Selling some or all of your current outfit, or slip it into a another room or try to add it to a deal to lower your costs. Gifting comes to mind. Really, I’d keep it myself and later get better speakers as was said.

Go with pre-owned recent gear and I’d pitch $2K or so into a very capable DAC, $3K or so into a nice Integrated amp, and the rest into cabling, a PL cond., rack and speakers. Then as is the normal case for most of us, treat the room to suit.

The outcome will then be a rig worth in the area of $15k to $20K, and ‘should’ be far more fun and revelatory than is the present one, so better gear as it comes along, can be better appraised.

You might only wind up with $3K for speakers, but that’s about a $5K to $7K MSRP pair of squeakers with any luck. Ensure too the speakers love your power amp.

$5K to $7K speakers routinely are not slouches.

All or part of that then rig will either keep your knee bobing and a grin on your face, or it will slowly trickle down in part or whole to another room or office aIF you remain on the terrible audio treadmill.

BTW audio treadmill of ‘dragon slaying system’ chasing does not always land in paradise. It just keeps spinning along until you come to your senses, or to the end of all available financial resources and maybe even an eventual treatment center. Lol

Good luck. Enjoy!

seanheis1
$4K in build parts for a DAC? What parts are so costly?

My design is a two chassis design.  Power supply alone is over 30lbs.  lets see chassis $1000, transformers $250, custom choke $100, V-Caps $250, RCA sockets, tube sockets, IEC, high end quality $100, circuit breaker (no fuse) $25, 101D tubes $300, 4 tubes power supply $100, R2R DAC $300, large clarity PS caps $125, military grade connector $25, resistors, caps, chokes, solder, wire, flex covering, feet, LED bulb, the list goes on and on, so just about $4K in total cost.

Someone mentioned that a $10K DAC won't sound twice as good as a $5K DAC, I would have to disagree with mine.  But it is still just my opinion and the opinion of the customers who have purchased one.  The only way to tell is to try something in your system and let your ears decide.

AL has some very good advice above.

"Even differences in how signals are routed within the printed circuit board, and how the board itself is constructed" - yep that is why my components are point -to-point wired.

Happy Listening.
Well, I settled on a Gingnur Multibit dac. Just hooked it up yesterday and while it sounds great, I'm not sure I can tell a discernible improvement over my MusicHall 25.3 dac. I haven't A/B'd them yet and perhaps that's what's needed to really tell a difference. Or perhaps I'm just not very good at this :/