Click title to read one, or click date to read all below it.
01-22-12
I doubt it's in your mind. if you listen to your system ever ... Tmsorosk
01-22-12
Bryon, it isn't magic, all you did was put some shielding a ... Chadeffect
01-22-12
Bryon, trust your ears, remove the ers cloth and see what ha ... Charles1dad
01-22-12
hi bryon, that is a good thing, as i see it, because imo th ... Almarg
01-22-12
Possibly by minimizing rfi it lowers the noise floor which e ... Tubegroover
01-22-12: Bryoncunningham
01-22-12: Tmsorosk
The big test comes in the following days when you forgot about the tweak, and walk threw your music room and get stopped in your tracks , hearing something that wasn't there before, then recall making a change.
I agree with this. Although A/B testing has its place, long term unreflective listening is the most informative way to evaluate sound quality, IME.
01-22-12: Chadeffect
It isn't magic, all you did was put some shielding around your Pre.
The use of the word 'Magic' is of course ironic. I understand that ERS fabric is designed to, in the words of Stillpoints, "absorb, diffuse, and reflect EMI/RFI energy."
What is puzzling to me is how ERS fabric accomplishes this, given its materials and design. Again, in the words of Stillpoints... "The core of ERS is made of a blend of carbon fibers of various lengths and sizes... these fibers are coated with metals, such as nickel." I am no EE, but how that design can absorb, diffuse, and reflect EMI/RFI energy is a mystery.
Incidentally, according to Stillpoints... "ERS does not operate under the same principles as a shield." Just what principles it DOES operate under are left unspecified. I assume it's Magic principles.
01-22-12: Almarg
...my feeling is that each issue and each tweak should be considered on an individual basis, and broad latitude should be allowed for the possibility that subtle and counter-intuitive phenomena may be at play. But that latitude should remain WITHIN FINITE BOUNDS OF PLAUSIBILITY!! A technical understanding of how the elements of a system work and how they interact, and of the theory behind a specific tweak, if applied with a reasonably open mind, can help assure that perceived effects are being attributed to the correct variable, and to better distinguish between the plausible and the implausible, the reasonable and the outlandish, and between pointless overkill and the possibility of significant benefit.
Eminently reasonable words from an eminently reasonable man. You are an EE, Al. Can you conjure an explanation for how this Magic Cloth works?
Bryon
Bryoncunningham (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-22-12
A friend had this stuff inside his meridian 808.2. his appli ... Tabl10s
01-22-12
Check out magic powers of ers fabric layed on the dinner tab ... Marakanetz
01-22-12
hi bryon, electromagnetic field theory has never been a str ... Almarg
01-22-12: Bryoncunningham
Wow, Al. Stillpoints should hire you to write copy! :-)
Seriously, thank you for your thoughtful answer. You are great at putting things in terms that folks like me can understand. I know that your explanations are partly speculative, but acknowledging that, there is still something that puzzles me...
How is it that SO LITTLE conductive material can have a perceptible effect on sound quality? Am I wrong in my assumption that diffusion/reflection/absorption of EMI/RFI typically requires something more substantial?
bc
Bryoncunningham (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-22-12
hi bryon, that's a good question, and i would think the ans ... Almarg
01-22-12: Bryoncunningham
That all makes sense, Al. Still, I feel like there's still a touch of Magic in it, in the sense I stated in the OP.
Among the stranger things commonly reported about ERS fabric is that using too much of it tends to diminish high frequencies, as Chad described in this thread. That is puzzling to me. Could it be that using too much ERS fabric somehow affects certain circuits in the way that high capacitance interconnects can act as a low pass filter?
And something else you said struck me:
...the only digital circuit points that would be susceptible to rfi-related noise are those at which jitter might be an issue.
Eureka! THAT explains my experience with ERS fabric. The two changes I reported in the OP were...
--the decay of notes
--instrument timbres
...both of which I associate with jitter. That association is a result of my experience adding a reclocker to my system. The raison d'être of the reclocker is to reduce jitter. Adding the reclocker provided me with an impression of what jitter sounds like, or more importantly, WHAT THE REDUCTION OF JITTER SOUNDS LIKE...
It sounds like what I heard after installing the ERS fabric.
This explanation is consistent with my placement of the fabric:
1. preamp power supply
2. reclocker (with an Audiocom Superclock 4)
3. preamp master clock (another Audiocom Superclock 4)
#2 and #3 are both digital circuits where the amount of jitter has a significant effect on sound quality. I think I can say with a reasonable amount of confidence that the ERS fabric is helping to reduce jitter.
Thank you, Al, for leading me to this realization. I still don't know whether Magic exists, but I am more confident that the changes I heard exist in my listening room and not in my mind.
bc
Bryoncunningham (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-22-12
You're welcome, bryon! glad i was helpful. i suppose it's c ... Almarg
01-22-12: Bryoncunningham
I used a liberal amount of ERS fabric, and I didn't notice a diminishment of high frequencies. That could be because of where I placed it, or if your hypothesis is correct, it could be because it merely removed some high frequency hiss.
I agree with your observation that some audiophiles perceive high frequency hiss as "air" or ambience. Personally, I tend to perceive it as noise.
In fact, with the ERS fabric installed, I can say that there is simultaneously LESS hiss and MORE ambience.
bc
Bryoncunningham (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-22-12
Bryon and al, just saw this thread. fascinating and informa ... Learsfool
01-22-12: Bryoncunningham
Thank you for those kind words, Learsfool. I very much enjoy your contributions as well. Having the point of view of a highly experienced musician is always informative. In addition to which, you are a true gentleman.
Bryoncunningham (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-22-12
I second bryon's response to your kind comments, learsfool. ... Almarg
01-22-12
Other types of materials used to absorbe rfi emi digital has ... Elizabeth
01-23-12: Bryoncunningham
Others (in posts such as this) then proceeded to slam him as a quack.
Perhaps I misunderstand what you are saying here, Elizabeth, but you appear to be referring to my post initiating this thread. If so, I'd like to point out something that I thought was self evident... My post was ironic. If you read my comments throughout the rest of the thread, you will see that the only person I'm "slamming" is myself.
Bryon
Bryoncunningham (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-23-12
Not sure what is going on here. i don't believe in magic. on ... Hifihvn
01-23-12
i've heard about this from several sources also. one proble ... Hifihvn
01-23-12
The refferal was to the guy with the antistatic stuff being ... Elizabeth
01-23-12: Bryoncunningham
Thank you for clarifying, Elizabeth. FWIW, my own personal history of skepticism about what I've been playfully referring to as 'magic' is counterbalanced by my willingness to try nearly anything. Among the "magical" devices in my current system are tweaks from Shunyata, Synergistic Research, Gingko, Bright Star, Mapleshade, Black Diamond Racing, and now Stillpoints.
Collectively, this adds up to a sizable investment in equipment that, quite frankly, I'm not exactly sure what it does. I know very well what THE MANUFACTURER says it does. But that is something else entirely.
You may wonder why I would keep this stuff if I'm uncertain about what it does. The answer is that I'm irrational. "What if you sell it and lose something critical to sound quality?" my irrational mind says. "Okay," I tell it, "we can keep it." Then my irrational mind goes to sleep and I'm left there wondering why I've spent thousands of dollars on Magic.
Bryon
Bryoncunningham (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-23-12
No one has defined magic. until this happens, non-elctronic ... Mrtennis
01-23-12
Magic is perhaps best defined as making change happen in acc ... Uru975
01-23-12
"any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguisha ... Geoffkait
01-23-12
Mr tennis i can't speak for the op but it seems clear to me ... Tubegroover
01-23-12
Wasnt that song by the loving spoonful. Ebm
01-23-12
yes it was! john sebastian, to whom i referred earlier, was ... Almarg
01-23-12: Bryoncunningham
01-23-12: Mrtennis
no one has defined magic.
I did. It was the second sentence in the OP: "Let's say that Magic is any effect not explainable by known physical laws." That is a definition. It may not be a definition you like.
i suppose in audio "things", which seem on the surface have no reason to have an effect upon the sound of a stereo system, might be construed as magic...
i doubt magic is the apt word to use to describe such a product.
Ahh... literalism. MrT, the use of the word 'magic' is ironic. I said as much in an earlier post. Tubegroover was exactly correct in his interpretation of my remarks. I'm using the word 'magic' to refer to an effect about which there is little understanding, even among experts.
The contrast to magic is mechanism. So that I'm not accused of failing to define 'mechanism,' let's say that a mechanism is any physical entity, property, or law that explains an observable effect.
That brings me to an observation about magic and mechanism that I hope will constructively contribute to this thread...
One man's magic is another man's mechanism.
That is to say, the understanding of physical laws varies from individual to individual. Al has an expert's understanding of physical laws. I have a layman's understanding. As a consequence, some things that are magic to me may be nothing more than mechanisms to Al. Put another way, magic isn't magic to a magician.
Which brings me to Geoff's reference to the famous Arthur C. Clarke quote about sufficiently advanced technologies being indistinguishable from magic. The essence of that insight is identical to the observation that one man's magic is another man's mechanism.
Which brings me back to magic in audio. No doubt there are some observable effects that are unexplainable to me but are explainable to experts. But there are other observable effects that are unexplainable EVEN TO EXPERTS.
And that is why I call it Magic.
Bryon
Bryoncunningham (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-23-12
"any sufficiently advanced self delusion is indistingui ... Kenyonbm
01-23-12
A connotation of magic might be something which is perceived ... Mrtennis
01-23-12
One major problem with a lot of these tweaks is the fact tha ... Hifihvn
01-24-12
These tweaks, if one assumes they work, seem to indicate tha ... Geoffkait
01-24-12
yes, room acoustics, vibration problems, and other variable ... Hifihvn
01-24-12
You have a keen insight into what others know and appear to ... Geoffkait
01-24-12
"perfect sound forever" another good example of m ... Hifihvn
01-24-12
Glad to see you're coming around to seeing it my way. Geoffkait
01-25-12
**** knowledge is not an absolute and continues to evolve.** ... Frogman
01-25-12
One has to keep an open mind and byron and al do so in such ... Nonoise
01-25-12
****and we don't have the answer or the ability to identify ... Frogman
01-25-12
"when it comes to this hobby, i have always found more ... Rodman99999
01-25-12
I think that i have found a concise definition of magic: an ... Mrtennis
01-26-12
I hear you about the placebo effect mr. tennis, easy to succ ... Tubegroover
01-26-12
This whole discussion exemplifies everything i have come to ... Sonicbeauty
01-26-12
Well sonicbeauty, wouldn't you agree that we wouldn't be &qu ... Tubegroover
01-26-12: Bryoncunningham
01-26-12: Sonicbeauty
This whole discussion exemplifies everything I have come to understand about the truth AND destiny of this hobby: The MUSIC taking a backseat to the never-ending analysis of SOUND, and the countless hours wasting on getting that little one last drop of improvement.
Although you go on to say “I am not judging, no right or wrong,” your comments read like a criticism of how people spend their time, both here on A’gon and at home in their listening rooms.
If your post is intended to be merely an “observation,” then your observation is a truism. The fact that audiophiles spend much of their time talking about equipment is patently true but entirely uninformative, since every person who participates in these discussions is aware of it. But of course you know that, being a regular participant yourself. So it’s hard to believe that you would post such a vacuous “observation.” That leads us back to… Your comments are a criticism. Your tone seems to support that interpretation:
And please, don’t serve me the argument that in the long run, this will make us enjoy the artist more. It may, of course, but by the time this happens, another upgrade-tweak-inducing in satisfaction will surface and start this whole quest for ''finding the air around the instruments''(that's what it's all about right?) process again.
That doesn’t sound like a non-judgmental observation to me. Maybe I’m being touchy. Taking that risk…
Criticizing hobbyists for how they conduct themselves is odd. If a person flies kites as a hobby, is he subject to criticism? That seems to defeat one of the most significant joys of having a hobby, namely that it provides a place where you are FREE FROM criticism.
I will also dispute the validity of your assumption that audiophiles who are avidly interested in equipment cannot also be avidly interested in music. That is false. I am interested in music and I am interested in equipment, both audio equipment and technology more generally. I suspect there are a great number of people on this site for whom that is true. Interest in music and interest in technology are not mutually exclusive. They are different activities. They are different experiences. They employ different regions of the brain. The enjoyment of one says nothing about the enjoyment of the other.
It’s also worth pointing out that our fascination with BOTH music and technology is ancient and transcultural. They both have their origins in human prehistory. They both exist in some form in every culture on earth. By the prevailing standards of evolutionary psychology and evolutionary anthropology, music and technology are both elements of WHAT IT MEANS to be human.
I would guess that at some level you already know all this, in light of the fact that you are a self-described music lover, yet you yourself have initiated a large number of threads here on A’gon relating to sound quality and equipment design...
The absolute best and worst-sounding CD you own?
Will a transformer, 220 to 100v, ruin the sound?
Are tone controls worth a second look ?
Preamps/amps that look great and''feel' great?
Single speaker wire on bi-posts with jumpers...?
Your ''best kept secret'' speaker choice ?
Most improved last 10yrs: Speaker, amp, or pre?
Anyone went back to using bare wires on speakers?
Amazing ''Overachieving'' products...your pick?
Record weights 'n clamps: Audible improvements?
Your best ''outstanding'' products in last 5 yrs?
Amplifiers: A Keeper for Life. Do you know of one?
Evidently, you have an interest in equipment. If you also have an interest in music, then you are your own “existence proof” that the two can peacefully coexist.
Bryon
Bryoncunningham (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-26-12
Some people can derive satisfaction from a transistor radio ... Nonoise
01-26-12
As mystifying as the stillpoints ers fabric might or might n ... Geoffkait
01-26-12
ok, now that is what i call olympic caliber chutspah!!! abso ... Swampwalker
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