Click title to read one, or click date to read all below it.
11-25-09
Thanks for the clarification, bryon. i guess where we reall ... Learsfool
11-25-09
Music is coloration- ie. a blend of sounds and overtones and ... Tonywinsc
11-25-09
Hey what happened? i hope i didn't say something to spoil t ... Tonywinsc
11-25-09
Tonywinsc - no, you didn't say anything to spoil the party. ... Bryoncunningham
11-26-09
I saw that in the posts- as independent researchers many of ... Tonywinsc
11-26-09
here, hamburg is challenging the idea that items (1) and ( ... Cbw723
11-26-09
Cbw, i think that the scenarios you have cited pinpoint some ... Almarg
11-26-09
Cbw, loved your post! almarg, i have always enjoyed your in ... Learsfool
11-27-09
Almarg wrote: al – i think you are probably correct that, ... Bryoncunningham
11-28-09
Bryoncunningham, to expand further on your discussion about ... Tonywinsc
12-01-09
Not all atc's are neutral. the scm 11 is described by john m ... Cdc
12-01-09
When you limit a driver in the frequency domain, you also li ... Cdc
12-01-09
this might be because the attack of the bass drum or toms i ... Shadorne
12-02-09
Almarg wrote: and i replied: ...the concept of ‘neutral ... Bryoncunningham
12-02-09
Hello bryon, i love your read. since i was impressed with y ... Muralman1
12-02-09
Bryon, that all strikes me as brilliantly conceived and bril ... Almarg
12-02-09
I need to add something. it has been my experience less is m ... Muralman1
12-02-09
Muralman - absolutely agree - less is more. 0.5m ic is much ... Kijanki
12-02-09
Good link shadorne, thanks. Cdc
12-02-09
Almarg wrote: al - this is a fascinating idea. if i unders ... Bryoncunningham
12-02-09
bryon, yes that is an excellent restatement of what i was tr ... Almarg
12-03-09
Wow. fascinating posts, bryon. however, ultimately i remai ... Learsfool
12-03-09
Learsfool wrote: learsfool – i did not mention eq in the c ... Bryoncunningham
12-03-09
exactly, at least in the context in which we have been discu ... Almarg
12-03-09
Hi bryon - obviously, the room has a big effect on how the s ... Learsfool
12-03-09
Gee, i was only gone for a week or so and i come back to fin ... Newbee
12-03-09
Fwiw, amoungst my failings, please include a total lack of e ... Newbee
12-03-09
I think bryon and almarg addressed most of learsfool's comme ... Cbw723
12-03-09
Al – i agree with everything in your last post. also, i was ... Bryoncunningham
12-03-09
I find my system is most neutral at very high volume, at the ... Musicjones4
12-04-09
A thought on the dilemma concerning increasing the degree of ... Almarg
12-04-09
i agree with this. but i was mixing two points. my main po ... Cbw723
12-04-09
that's the point that i'm questioning. let's say that you h ... Almarg
12-04-09
Cbw’s eq challenge to my operationalization of ‘neutrality’ ... Bryoncunningham
12-04-09
Bryon - i'm under impression that you discuss mostly frequen ... Kijanki
12-04-09
frequency response has been mentioned a few times on this t ... Bryoncunningham
12-04-09
Very interesting discussions, guys! bryon, i think you do m ... Learsfool
12-05-09
how do you know how it supposed to sound? sitar from no ... Kijanki
12-05-09
I think you hit a homer there, kijanki. hearing is an issue. ... Muralman1
12-05-09
Learsfool wrote: learsfool - what do you think of al's comm ... Bryoncunningham
12-05-09
Bryon wrote: "i do not believe that there is one " ... Kijanki
12-05-09
Bryon, i have some more thoughts on the "excess contras ... Cbw723
12-05-09
Kijanki wrote: again, i would ask: does coloration exist? c ... Bryoncunningham
12-05-09
i think that this statement gives increased credence to what ... Almarg
12-05-09
Al, i for one, have no reason why i couldn't agree with your ... Newbee
12-05-09
i think it would be more accurate to characterize bryon as ... Cbw723
12-06-09
which still leaves me with the question about timbre. it’s ... Cbw723
12-06-09: Learsfool
Bryon, for the first time, I am truly puzzled by your reasoning. You posed two questions about Al's example, "Do you not believe a 50K system is more neutral than a $300 Walmart system," and "do you not believe the $300 system has more coloration," and then proceeded to state "It is important to note that the two questions MUST be answered in the same way." My emphasis. Huh? It most certainly does NOT follow that just because I don't believe in neutrality, that therefore I don't believe in coloration! (The same goes for the "neutral room"/ "room coloration" thing). The only way this could possibly be true is within the context of your own personal definition, which is precisely what is under debate here. This is certainly a fallacy, as I said I think it is a form of question begging - I will have to ask my uncle, who used to teach philosophy/logic (and is also an audiophile, by the way). By the way, please do not take this as a personal criticism - I am often disappointed by my own arguments, and I am sure they also contain some fallacies. So far, the only way you have defined your "neutrality" characteristic is by saying that it is an absence of some other characteristic, which you are calling "coloration." Frankly, I am not certain that this would pass muster as a scientific definition in the first place - I don't think it is accepted to define one thing solely as an absence of some other thing?
I have spoken at length on the "neutrality" part of this. As for the "coloration" part: you are using this term in an extremely narrow sense. One could argue that everything is a coloration. Just as painting is the art of visual coloring, music is the art of aural coloring, if we can accept this crude analogy. There is certainly no such thing as a "neutral" violin. A Strad, which costs millions, is not more "neutral" than a $500 school instrument, though of course all would agree it sounds far better, and has a very different "coloration." Just so, just about all would agree the $50K system will sound far better than the $300 Walmart one - again with a very different "coloration." One Strad is not more neutral than another, either, though all sound different. Same with the two preamps in my example in my previous post - both may sound very different, but this does not mean one is either "better" (as Bryon correctly pointed out, even if chosen by a majority), or that it is more "neutral." They are "colored" differently, and deliberately, by their designers, according to the designer's artistic ideal of sound coloration. There is no such thing as the absence of color in sound (and therefore, it logically follows, in sound reproduction). Otherwise music could not exist. The things you are specifically describing as "colorations" (intermodulation distortion, etc.) of course exist. But they are not the only "colorations" that exist in sound or it's reproduction; their absence does not prove the existence of "neutrality." Again, as Kijanki and I keep asking, how do you know what anything is "supposed" to sound like? There is no one answer to that question, and your assertion that there is is dumbfounding. A great many audiophiles calling themselves "objectivists" would stop far short of such an assertion. I fail to see how anyone could think of music or it's reproduction in such black and white terms. It reminded Kijanki of a discussion of "good taste." It reminds me more of a devout and very learned theologian attempting to argue the existence of God (the textbook question begging argument, by the way), though I do not say that this is analogous, and I hope no one takes offense. I have greatly enjoyed the discussion, as I said. Cbw723, I think Newbee's description is very apt - "an artful construct to further an unattractive goal." Seeing the art of musical reproduction as black and white as this is certainly unattractive IMO, though there is no doubt that Bryon's argument in general is artfully done. Much more artfully done than mine, LOL! It's a darn good thing I make my living as a musician, not a writer!
Learsfool (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
12-06-09
Learsfool writes: no, the thing being debated is how one ju ... Cbw723
12-06-09
Cbw723 - aural memory of what? i've never been to recording ... Kijanki
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