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  Reviews with all double blind testing?
In the July, 2005 issue of Stereophile, John Atkinson discusses his debate with Arnold Krueger, who Atkinson suggest fundamentally wants only double blind testing of all products in the name of science. Atkinson goes on to discuss his early advocacy of such methodology and his realization that the conclusion that all amps sound the same, as the result of such testing, proved incorrect in the long run. Atkinson’s double blind test involved listening to three amps, so it apparently was not the typical different or the same comparison advocated by those advocating blind testing.

I have been party to three blind testings and several “shootouts,” which were not blind tests and thus resulted in each component having advocates as everyone knew which was playing. None of these ever resulted in a consensus. Two of the three db tests were same or different comparisons. Neither of these resulted in a conclusion that people could consistently hear a difference. One was a comparison of about six preamps. Here there was a substantial consensus that the Bozak preamp surpassed more expensive preamps with many designers of those preamps involved in the listening. In both cases there were individuals that were at odds with the overall conclusion, and in no case were those involved a random sample. In all cases there were no more than 25 people involved.

I have never heard of an instance where “same versus different” methodology ever concluded that there was a difference, but apparently comparisons of multiple amps and preamps, etc. can result in one being generally preferred. I suspect, however, that those advocating db, mean only “same versus different” methodology. Do the advocates of db really expect that the outcome will always be that people can hear no difference? If so, is it the conclusion that underlies their advocacy rather than the supposedly scientific basis for db? Some advocates claim that were there a db test that found people capable of hearing a difference that they would no longer be critical, but is this sincere?

Atkinson puts it in terms of the double blind test advocates want to be right rather than happy, while their opponents would rather be happy than right.

Tests of statistical significance also get involved here as some people can hear a difference, but if they are insufficient in number to achieve statistical significance, then proponents say we must accept the null hypothesis that there is no audible difference. This is all invalid as the samples are never random samples and seldom, if ever, of a substantial size. Since the tests only apply to random samples and statistical significance is greatly enhanced with large samples, nothing in the typical db test works to yield the result that people can hear a difference. This would suggest that the conclusion and not the methodology or a commitment to “science” is the real purpose.

Without db testing, the advocates suggest those who hear a difference are deluding themselves, the placebo effect. But were we to use db but other than the same/different technique and people consistently choose the same component, would we not conclude that they are not delusional? This would test another hypothesis that some can hear better.

I am probably like most subjectivists, as I really do not care what the outcomes of db testing might be. I buy components that I can afford and that satisfy my ears as realistic. Certainly some products satisfy the ears of more people, and sometimes these are not the positively reviewed or heavily advertised products. Again it strikes me, at least, that this should not happen in the world that the objectivists see. They see the world as full of greedy charlatans who use advertising to sell expensive items which are no better than much cheaper ones.

Since my occupation is as a professor and scientist, some among the advocates of double blind might question my commitment to science. My experience with same/different double blind experiments suggest to me a flawed methodology. A double blind multiple component design, especially with a hypothesis that some people are better able to hear a difference, would be more pleasing to me, but even here, I do not think anyone would buy on the basis of such experiments.

To use Atkinson’s phrase, I am generally happy and don’t care if the objectivists think I am right. I suspect they have to have all of us say they are right before they can be happy. Well tough luck, guys. I cannot imagine anything more boring than consistent findings of no difference among wires and components, when I know that to be untrue. Oh, and I have ordered additional Intelligent Chips. My, I am a delusional fool!
Tbg  (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)

06-12-05
  Responses (101-150 of 185)
Click title to read one, or click date to read all below it.

12-06-05   Pabelson, why do you willfully ignore the truth? it is only ...   Tbg

12-07-05   that is correct, semantically. it's also kinda philosophical ...   Gregm

12-07-05   Qualia8, i think the blind testing of women orchestra player ...   Wattsboss

12-07-05   With regard to the dbt on two amps that were indistinguishab ...   Henryhk

12-07-05   Put it another way, double blind testing cannot work imo in ...   Henryhk

12-07-05   Sooner or later someone is gonna start advocating db testing ...   Henryhk

12-06-05   this is just an astounding statement. how in the world can ...   Pabelson

12-06-05   Greg: your generally thoughtful and balanced letter was, in ...   Pabelson

12-06-05   Warning: long post -- life history and its illustration of b ...   Qualia8

12-07-05   Pabelson, thanks for yr kind words, but the quotes you make ...   Gregm

12-07-05   Wattsboss: i *do* like your analogy of the beauty that grow ...   Qualia8

12-07-05   as part of that context, wouldn't you like to know whether ...   Pabelson

12-07-05   Pabelson, no i have no interest in whether a reviewer can he ...   Tbg

12-07-05   Yes, beauty can grow on you. but notice that it's not the la ...   Pabelson

12-07-05   Pabelson, thanks for your posts. although i have never done ...   Shadorne

12-07-05   With apologies to shakespeare and all logicians: "to db ...   Puremusic

12-07-05   My new policy on audiogon is to post my opinion and let it s ...   Gregadd

12-07-05   Let's not be so selective about what neuroscience has been d ...   Pabelson

12-07-05   Perhaps because the neuroscientist/psychoacousticians don't ...   Tbg

12-07-05   Hi pabelson, "but they've also discovered that, once y ...   Puremusic

12-07-05   Suffice it to say that gregadd's history of dbts is almost e ...   Pabelson

12-08-05   As they say in the neighborhood where i grew up..."it's ...   Gregadd

12-08-05   Pabelson, you owe us an explanation of how two amps that rep ...   Tbg

12-08-05   Gregadd: if you were talking about the response of a single ...   Pabelson

12-08-05   Tbg: two amps that reproduce music differently enough to be ...   Pabelson

12-08-05   The standoff between pabelson and tbg reminds me of the stal ...   Qualia8

12-08-05   As i have said at least 5 times, your statement that, " ...   Tbg

12-08-05   Interesting discussion but i think the main point or lesson ...   Shadorne

12-08-05   Shadorne, i understand your moderate position. please take n ...   Tbg

12-08-05   Let me try this one last time. just because you beleive in ...   Gregadd

12-08-05   Pabelson: we've said the same thing... what *would* count a ...   Qualia8

12-08-05   Shadorne: another way of making your point is this. even i ...   Qualia8

12-08-05   Qualia, you say, "why anyone, whether or not they think ...   Tbg

12-08-05   apparently so. the explanation is simple: if you understand ...   Pabelson

12-09-05   I don't understand all the talk about "flawed methodolo ...   Phredd2

12-08-05   Yes, qualia, we are asking the same question. it's the same ...   Pabelson

12-09-05   Okay, objectivists, one more try. i have participated in sam ...   Tbg

12-09-05   I use to think wires made no difference. shoot, if i go back ...   Muralman1

12-09-05   For the record, i am not opposed to rigorous db tests; they ...   Puremusic

12-09-05   Puremusic, that's a good start on coming up with a test you ...   Phredd2

12-09-05   Puremusic: psychoacoustics and neuroscience are already way ...   Pabelson

12-10-05   Citations please, pabelson. i don't follow this literature a ...   Tbg

12-10-05   An explanation of why we pick up auditory differences closel ...   Qualia8

12-10-05   Hi pabelson, you did not address some critical issues i ra ...   Puremusic

12-10-05   Qualia, yes there is some minor dbtesting in wine, but as in ...   Tbg

12-10-05   Qualia8, "far from cleansing the auditory taste of one ...   Puremusic

12-10-05: Puremusic
Qualia8,

There is a vast array of specializations among the neurons in the brain. Some, as you pointed out, detect differences, others sameness; yet others, change or motion or timing, etc. Ignoring that complexity, may lead both sides of this discussion to over-simplification at best and to closed-mindedness at worst.

With that in mind, let me add the flip side to my previous post to you. The after-effects may not only smear differences, but they may also distort sameness. Take for example the two abstract amorphous paintings containing a rich array of colors in my living room. Everyone who looks at either one, reports the same phenomena. The colors change, the amorphous shapes change and those shapes move. Now, we know the painting remains the same. The changes are the result of the brain's processing. It appears the after-images of the various colors "combine" with the direct stimuli to produce a change in the perception, which in turn forms it's after-images which "combine" with the subsequent direct stimuli, etc. What follows is a sequence of illusory changes which create a dynamic that is not there.

This perceptual phenomena of after-images has been studied but it has not been eliminated. The temptation to reduce it's effect by taking micro-second intervals of music, automatically prejudices the methodology against percieving differences that require longer intervals; for example, decay and rhythm.

The debate with probably go on. In the meantime, it's good to have a discussion that produces more illumination than heat.

Enjoy the Music,
John

Puremusic  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-10-05   But if these "after effects" mattered, john, then ...   Pabelson

12-10-05   Tbg: so who called you a fool? who called you "anti-sci ...   Pabelson

12-10-05   Hi phredd2, you asked for some additional elements for rigo ...   Puremusic


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