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  Reviews with all double blind testing?
In the July, 2005 issue of Stereophile, John Atkinson discusses his debate with Arnold Krueger, who Atkinson suggest fundamentally wants only double blind testing of all products in the name of science. Atkinson goes on to discuss his early advocacy of such methodology and his realization that the conclusion that all amps sound the same, as the result of such testing, proved incorrect in the long run. Atkinson’s double blind test involved listening to three amps, so it apparently was not the typical different or the same comparison advocated by those advocating blind testing.

I have been party to three blind testings and several “shootouts,” which were not blind tests and thus resulted in each component having advocates as everyone knew which was playing. None of these ever resulted in a consensus. Two of the three db tests were same or different comparisons. Neither of these resulted in a conclusion that people could consistently hear a difference. One was a comparison of about six preamps. Here there was a substantial consensus that the Bozak preamp surpassed more expensive preamps with many designers of those preamps involved in the listening. In both cases there were individuals that were at odds with the overall conclusion, and in no case were those involved a random sample. In all cases there were no more than 25 people involved.

I have never heard of an instance where “same versus different” methodology ever concluded that there was a difference, but apparently comparisons of multiple amps and preamps, etc. can result in one being generally preferred. I suspect, however, that those advocating db, mean only “same versus different” methodology. Do the advocates of db really expect that the outcome will always be that people can hear no difference? If so, is it the conclusion that underlies their advocacy rather than the supposedly scientific basis for db? Some advocates claim that were there a db test that found people capable of hearing a difference that they would no longer be critical, but is this sincere?

Atkinson puts it in terms of the double blind test advocates want to be right rather than happy, while their opponents would rather be happy than right.

Tests of statistical significance also get involved here as some people can hear a difference, but if they are insufficient in number to achieve statistical significance, then proponents say we must accept the null hypothesis that there is no audible difference. This is all invalid as the samples are never random samples and seldom, if ever, of a substantial size. Since the tests only apply to random samples and statistical significance is greatly enhanced with large samples, nothing in the typical db test works to yield the result that people can hear a difference. This would suggest that the conclusion and not the methodology or a commitment to “science” is the real purpose.

Without db testing, the advocates suggest those who hear a difference are deluding themselves, the placebo effect. But were we to use db but other than the same/different technique and people consistently choose the same component, would we not conclude that they are not delusional? This would test another hypothesis that some can hear better.

I am probably like most subjectivists, as I really do not care what the outcomes of db testing might be. I buy components that I can afford and that satisfy my ears as realistic. Certainly some products satisfy the ears of more people, and sometimes these are not the positively reviewed or heavily advertised products. Again it strikes me, at least, that this should not happen in the world that the objectivists see. They see the world as full of greedy charlatans who use advertising to sell expensive items which are no better than much cheaper ones.

Since my occupation is as a professor and scientist, some among the advocates of double blind might question my commitment to science. My experience with same/different double blind experiments suggest to me a flawed methodology. A double blind multiple component design, especially with a hypothesis that some people are better able to hear a difference, would be more pleasing to me, but even here, I do not think anyone would buy on the basis of such experiments.

To use Atkinson’s phrase, I am generally happy and don’t care if the objectivists think I am right. I suspect they have to have all of us say they are right before they can be happy. Well tough luck, guys. I cannot imagine anything more boring than consistent findings of no difference among wires and components, when I know that to be untrue. Oh, and I have ordered additional Intelligent Chips. My, I am a delusional fool!
Tbg  (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)

06-12-05
  Responses (1-50 of 185)
Click title to read one, or click date to read all below it.

06-12-05   I have nothing against double blind testing. the only thing ...   Rja

06-12-05   Rja, i fully suspect you are right. we would have to run exp ...   Tbg

06-12-05   The problem i see with this test is that if the equipment do ...   Elsneb

06-12-05   My take on the article was that j.a. was being deliberately ...   Jeff_jones

06-12-05   When someone claims a dramatic difference exists, a double b ...   Eldartford

06-12-05   is it just me or is the word 'synergy" the magic word ...   Chadnliz

06-12-05   What seems to be beyond audiophiles is that the only criteri ...   Ohlala

06-13-05   I am somewhat unhappy that i spoke of j.a. in my post as he ...   Tbg

06-13-05   I agree "synergy" is an overused word, but for bli ...   Elsneb

06-13-05   Tbg: the main question of your post seems to be, do objectiv ...   Pabelson

06-13-05   Pabelson, you added greatly to my historic understanding of ...   Tbg

06-13-05   Tbg: if these tests didn't yield positive results, they'd be ...   Pabelson

06-13-05   Double blind tests, statistcal analysis...it all seems ridic ...   Tvad

06-13-05: Tbg
Pabelson, I must admit that I had not known of the Stereo Review's db tests. Out of curiosity I will have to look them up. Are there others?

I teach statistics. Apart from making judgments about the population from a random sample, the concept of a confidence interval has no meaning. We never can make the conclusion, "...that the listener really heard a difference, and wasn't just guessing lucky." With a random sample of sufficient size, you can get a confidence level of .05 which might be that your experimental group's mean response was right 15 out of 20 times. This is why I ask about this number in the absence of a random sample. 15 out of 20 may impress you, but it has no basis in statistics.

I also do not understand the notion that db testing is unneeded for, "components where differences are undeniable." Undeniable by whom?

I grow less convinced that db testing has any potential for sheading light in the evaluation of stereo equipment.

Tvad, were good db testing procedures, I would think we would have to assess whether some were better evaluators than others. As I said earlier, I still think review magazines would be boring and that most audiophiles would ignor the results, if any were positive.

Tbg  (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)


06-14-05   Jeez, sorry for my out-of-place post. i don't know what i t ...   Ohlala

06-14-05   Tvad, i find your last post preposterous. you state that yo ...   Onhwy61

06-14-05   Onhwy61, i don't believe one has to obsess over the importan ...   Tvad

06-14-05   Tvad, well said.   Tbg

06-14-05   Tvad writes =if that's not criteria for entry into the audi ...   Wc65mustang

06-14-05   Onhwy61, your comments read like a racist expressing his dis ...   Boa2

06-14-05   I mentioned this in another thread not too long ago. in blin ...   Rja

06-14-05   Tvad, i applaud your dedication to this hobby and i truly wi ...   Onhwy61

06-14-05   That was you, onhwy61? i couldn't see you through the cloud ...   Boa2

06-14-05   when i read this. i was actually picturing somewhere in sub ...   4yanx

06-14-05   Onwhy61, you wrote: i believe some of your consternation wi ...   Tvad

06-15-05   Tvad sez: of course you can't. you can only reproduce what t ...   Gregm

06-15-05   Gregm, faithful reproduction of the live recorded event has ...   Tvad

06-15-05   Tbg: for someone who "teaches statistics," you exp ...   Pabelson

06-15-05   Palelson, perhaps we just have a language difference. i woul ...   Tbg

06-15-05   As i recall, statistics can be very useful. stat 101....int ...   Eldartford

06-15-05   well, that's one possible hypothesis. another possible hypo ...   Pabelson

06-16-05   Pabelson, frankly i don't care enough about this question to ...   Tbg

06-16-05   Man let this thread die, life is too short   Chadnliz

06-16-05   I agree. sorry.   Tbg

06-16-05   Tbg: if all you care about is finding a great speaker, why'd ...   Pabelson

06-16-05   I started the thread because i am curious about those who do ...   Tbg

06-16-05   no objectivists of my acquaintance (and i am acquainted wit ...   Pabelson

06-16-05   Tbg...i also can "hear" the effect of tweeters/sup ...   Eldartford

06-17-05   Eldartford sezwell, 1) about 20yrs ago a french prof (forgot ...   Gregm

06-17-05   Gregm, i do not know how many out there experienced the mura ...   Tbg

11-21-05   I teach a course on the philosophy of color and color percep ...   Qualia8

11-21-05   Troy: psychoacoustics is well aware of the possibility that ...   Pabelson

11-22-05   My point was not to call into question the efficacy of blind ...   Qualia8

11-22-05   In theory, i like the idea of double blind testing, but it h ...   Jj2468

11-22-05   My apologies. i took you for the typical dbt-basher. as for ...   Pabelson

11-25-05   I find this a very interesting topic. on one hand, it is so ...   Whoaru99

11-25-05   it seems to me there is a spectrum of audiophilia, which at ...   Tvad

11-25-05   I have a huge problem with the concept of dbt, with regards ...   Agaffer

11-26-05   Agaffer, i agree. i have participated in dbts several times ...   Tbg

11-27-05   Dbt as done in audio has significant methodological issues t ...   Rouvin


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