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01-13-11: Halcro
For thousands of years it was believed that the earth was the centre of the solar system and that the sun revolved around it.
Before telescopes existed, Copernicus proposed that it was the earth in fact, that revolved around the sun.
For longer than I can remember, it was generally accepted that the turntable (plinth/platter) was the centre of the analogue playback system with the arm and cartridge attendant to it?
I propose that it is the arm…..or rather the cartridge that is in fact the centre of the turntable system with the platter required simply to drive the record onto the stylus.
Together with the belief that the platter is the centre of the ‘Turntable System’ is the belief that the stylus ‘tracks’ the groove in the vinyl in a passive subservient manner?
I propose that it is the platter which drives the vinyl groove onto the stylus which is being held rigidly by the tonearm.
Imagine if you will in a perfect world, a cartridge held in a vice-like grip and a mile-long, perfectly straight vinyl groove being fed at precisely the right speed past the stylus?
All that would be required for the cartridge to transmit perfect information, is the ability to move up and down frictionlessly to allow for warpage as the groove modulates?
Now this ‘straight’ vinyl groove is in fact a ‘spiral’ so that the cartridge must have the ability to adjust its position laterally also in a frictionless manner.
That is the purpose of the tonearm……to hold the cartridge rigidly yet allow it to move up and down and sideways as the vinyl groove is rammed onto the stylus at a perfectly maintained constant speed.
The tonearm is now the centre of this ‘Turntable System’ and is the most important element. It must be rigidly held on a base which is perfectly flat, non-magnetic and relatively immune to structure-borne and air-borne feedback. This base must ideally have no contact with mechanical or electrical interference and must under no circumstances, move or deflect in any manner.
This base should ideally have no contact with the drive mechanism of the platter or the plinth, sub-platter, belt, gears, idler-wheels etc.
This base should be an island.
The ‘turntable’ or platter is simply a revolving mechanism positioned at a certain geometrical distance from the centre of the tonearm, whose method of drive has absolutely no impact on the sound of the ‘system’ so long as it maintains perfect speed control and perfect isolation to the record from air-borne and structure-borne feedback.
The idea therefore of a plinth around the platter in the above scenario, would only serve to add or subtract information in a worst-case scenario, or be totally transparent in a best-case situation.
There……I’ve said it.
Is there a 'Galileo' out there to support me before I die unrecognised? :-(
Halcro (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-13-11
Interesting thoughts. first, though, a question: how did you ... Hodu
01-13-11
Ummm.... first you posit a "new" way of looking a ... Lewm
01-13-11
Dear halcro: when i " arrived " to this forum ( 6- ... Rauliruegas
01-13-11: Halcro
Thanks Hodu,
After the initial thread was started (with the link to my system's page), I was then able to post the long statement on this thread.
I wrote to Audiogon but have received no answer as to why this might be?
Halcro (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-13-11: Halcro
Dear Lew,
My thesis is that once the immovable and isolated base has been established for the tonearm, the method of drive for the turntable will make no difference to the sound retrieved by the cartridge as long as perfectly correct and stable speed is achieved without any resonances transmitted via the platter.
If this is the case and I am correct (two big 'ifs'), any 'plinth' is superfluous?
If an added plinth around the turntable alters the sound in any way, then it cannot be correct.
It may be preferred by certain listeners but must by definition, be a tone control either adding or subtracting information.
As Atmasphere correctly said about outboard phono stages.......if a change of interconnects changes the sound, the phono stage is flawed.
Halcro (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-13-11: Halcro
Dear Raul,
You are certainly correct that you have constantly been claiming that the tonearm/cartridge UNIT is the 'King' and most important part of the record-playing system.
But that is NOT what I am claiming.
My belief is that it is the BASE for the tonearm/cartridge unit which is the 'sine qua non' of the turntable system.
Once you have an immovable and isolated base, you may put whatever tonearm/cartridge combination you wish upon it?
MANY tonearms will sound well with a multitude of cartridges and I don't believe there is a single 'BEST' tonearm nor cartridge for all occasions?
I am claiming that without the precondition of the immovable and isolated tonearm BASE, any tonearm/cartridge combination will be compromised to some degree.
Of course there are many examples of non-isolated tonearm bases which work perfectly well but do so, I think, because they approach very closely, the characteristics of the isolated immovable base?
Your thoughts, as always, are appreciated.
Regards
Henry
Halcro (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-13-11
"the tonearm is now the centre of this ‘turntable ... Dover
01-14-11
Interesting views. most think, that a turntable, no matter ... Syntax
01-14-11
Turntable chassis, motor drive (idler, direct, belt), beari ... Thuchan
01-14-11
Dear halcro: i see. +++++ " i am claiming that without ... Rauliruegas
01-14-11
Copernicus was a twit anyway. Lewm
01-14-11
Come on lewm, copernicus certainly was no twit. if still bou ... Dertonarm
01-14-11: Halcro
Thanks for your thoughts Syntax.
Cheers
Henry
Halcro (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-14-11: Halcro
Dear Thuchan,
Yes, Micro Seiki knew a thing or two about analogue.
Your SX 8000 had it's motor separated from the plinth/platter and, as you say, the very solid arm boards attached rigidly to the plinth.
This is an example of an understandable use of a plinth........not designed to change the sound of the information extracted from the grooves, but to support the platter bearing and tonearms.
Sort of copied by TW Raven among others? :-)
Halcro (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-15-11: Halcro
Dear Raul,
I think you and I are in agreement on these things.
In terms of the compromises inherent at every step of the analogue system, it is still possible for even a budget turntable/arm/cartridge combination to easily outdo digital reproduction and with the best analogue reproduction, it is possible to approach the sound of master tapes?
So those compromises must be very small and easily overcome for this to be?
Regards
Henry
Halcro (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-15-11: Halcro
Dear Dertonarm,
No......Galileo didn't have a happy life with the Pope in Rome, but his book gave him immortality.
I saw you as the perfect candidate as Galileo in this case with your new turntable almost perfected?
And then with Raul's new tonearm, we will all only have to worry about which cartridges to play with? :-)
Cheers
Henry
Halcro (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-15-11
Dt, i was joking of course. this discourse was getting enti ... Lewm
01-15-11
Dear henry, your remark above to thuchan re the sx8000 is in ... Lewm
01-15-11
Dt, i was joking of course. this discourse was getting enti ... Lewm
01-15-11
Dear halcro, the turntable, arm and cartridge do form one me ... Dertonarm
01-15-11
Regards, dover: you wrote: "there should be no cantilev ... Timeltel
01-15-11
Dear halcro: to your first question imho not only a budget a ... Rauliruegas
01-15-11
Halcro sez ""the tone arm is the heart of a turnta ... Blackburn
01-15-11: Halcro
Dear Lew,
My proposition is that ideally the base for the tonearm should be an isolated, level and immovable object resistant to all forms of mechanical and electrical interference.
If that is not possible, a reasonable facsimile of such a base is perfectly workable as demonstrated by the existence of 'reasonable' turntables with integral tonearm bases.
What my theory implies is that those tables with tonearm bases subject to mechanical or electrical interference or those with flimsy suspended bases subject to movement and/or deflection will never be able to extract the correct information from the groove modulation?
And yes......this theory has been crystallised by my 'Nude Turntable Project' with the isolated remote armpods around the Victor TT-81.
With belt drive and Idlers, a 'plinth' is required to support the platter thrust bearing and/or various mechanical linkages whereas with direct drive, the sub-platter and motor are an integral unit......I think? :-)
Halcro (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-15-11: Halcro
Dear Dertonarm,
the turntable, arm and cartridge do form ONE mechanical system. I agree.... but only once the stylus is in the groove.
Before that event I don't understand why there needs to be any physical connection between the platter and arm?
I also agree that the 'plinth' and 'platter' commonly produce unwanted side effects. That is why I wish to be rid of one of these (the plinth) and preface my theory by stating that the platter must provide "perfect isolation" from any resonances into the record? :-)
Cheers
Henry
Halcro (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-15-11: Halcro
Dear Timeltel,
Consider yourself excused.
I always welcome your idiosyncratic and knowledgeable interjections.
I hopefully expect more of them :-)
Regards
Henry
Halcro (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-15-11
Raul, your last post is spot on imo!!! i agree about there b ... 1gear
01-15-11
Dear raul, may i invite you to munich. if you listen to a re ... Thuchan
01-15-11: Halcro
Well Raul,
You've finally managed to shock me.
Digital better than analogue....coming from the very person on this Forum who could rightly be called the 'Analogue King'?.......or so I thought?
I think there may be some people on this planet who are genetically or congenitally afflicted with a sub-conscious 'trigger' to digital sound.
I know that for me and my good friend Richard, we are physically unable to critically listen to digital for longer than about half an hour without our bodies internally tightening and our brains dreaming of another pursuit.
This was the case 30 years ago and is still applicable today.
Others of course suffer from no such handicap and I envy them.
Were I similarly blessed, I wonder if indeed I would suffer through the traumas associated with analogue?
Be that as it may, I disagree with you emphatically about the inaccuracies/distortions/noise inherent in the vinyl playback process.
For 25 years my humble $375 Rega Planar 3/Hadcock GH228 easily outclassed any CD player I heard in comparison.
As for your confession on Master Tapes?.............I'm sure you had one too many Tequilas before writing this?
It makes no sense on so many levels that I don't know where to begin unless you simply meant Master Tape 'Copies' played on domestic tape decks?
If what you say is true?............why in fact are you wasting so much time and energy in testing cartridges and headshells?
Why are you not contributing many more posts in the Digital Forums?
Dear Raul, my faith in your ears has been significantly diminished :-(
Halcro (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-15-11
Dear thuchan: i'm just waiting for the flight ticket! you k ... Rauliruegas
01-16-11
Dear halcro: ++++++ " i disagree with you emphatically ... Rauliruegas
01-16-11
Dear halcro, getting "rid" of the turntables plint ... Dertonarm
01-16-11
Dear raul, i will wait for you at the airport from monday o ... Thuchan
01-16-11
Halcro, i agree with you - something must have been happened ... Thuchan
01-16-11
Halcro, you seem to be satisfied with how your jvc project t ... Blackburn
01-16-11
Thuchan if your going to hang around the air port for raul t ... Blackburn
01-16-11
Dear thuchan and halcro: i'm still an analog/lp music lover ... Rauliruegas
01-16-11
Raul, for me digital is an alternative reserved for when i w ... Lewm
01-16-11
Dear lewm: certainly not i'm involve deep with analog/lp ody ... Rauliruegas
01-16-11
Yeah, and what would freud have to say about the need to hav ... Bjesien
01-16-11
What would freud say about all and each of us? who cares? he ... Inna
01-16-11
Dear bjesien, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. and a tonea ... Lewm
01-16-11
Don't be so sure about cigars and tonearms; they may never b ... Inna
01-16-11
Halcro, talking about solid and level base, is your wall sh ... Jaspert
01-16-11
Lewn, everything is as it is. i get that. just being fooli ... Bjesien
01-17-11: Halcro
Yes Jaspert,
The shelf being cantilevered on aluminium brackets from the wall and carrying the weights of both turntables, preamp,tuner,tape deck,DVD, VCR and Plasma TV slopes in all directions?
That's why there are solid spacers under the adjustable Stillpoints of the Raven as well as under all 9 feet of the motors. And that's also why each arm-pod surrounding the TT-81 has 3 adjustable levelling spikes.
Life as an audiophile wasn't meant to be easy?
Halcro (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-17-11: Halcro
Blackburn,
Interesting question?
I've never actually heard the big Micros that Thuchan and Syntax have but I assume you are correct that they sound differently to each other?
I'm sure that they and Dertonarm would be able to offer some explanations but I don't think any Raven owners would like to hear them? :-)
Halcro (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-17-11: Halcro
Dear Dertonarm,
getting "rid" of the turntables plinth will be very similar (sonic-wise..) to "castrate" the turntable. I would have thought the same before I tried Raul's 'Nude Turntable Project'?
The bass I get out of this 'plinthless' DD is even better than the Raven with plinth?
Cheers
Henry
Halcro (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
01-17-11: Halcro
Dear Thuchan,
When Raul was infected who could be the next? I hope it's not I??!!
Cheers
Henry
Halcro (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
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