AudiogoN
Search Buy Sell Learn MyPage
 Learn > Forums > Analog > 1200430667  Start New Thread | Log In | Bookmark This
  Who needs a MM cartridge type when we have MC?
Dear friends: who really needs an MM type phono cartridge?, well I will try to share/explain with you what are my experiences about and I hope too that many of you could enrich the topic/subject with your own experiences.

For some years ( in this forum ) and time to time I posted that the MM type cartridge quality sound is better than we know or that we think and like four months ago I start a thread about: forum.audiogon#Rauliruegas where we analyse some MM type cartridges.

Well, in the last 10-12 months I buy something like 30+ different MM type phono cartridges ( you can read in my virtual system which ones. ) and Iím still doing it. The purpose of this fact ( ď buy it ď ) is for one way to confirm or not if really those MM type cartridges are good for us ( music lovers ) and at the same time learn about MM vs MC cartridges, as a fact I learn many things other than MM/MC cartridge subject.

If we take a look to the Agon analog members at least 90% of them use ( only ) MC phono cartridges, if we take a look to the ď professional reviewers ď ( TAS, Stereophile, Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music, etc, etc, ) 95% ( at least ) of them use only MC cartridges ( well I know that for example: REG and NG of TAS and RJR of Stereophile use only MM type cartridges!!!!!!!! ) , if we take a look to the phono cartridge manufacturers more than 90% of them build/design for MC cartridges and if you speak with audio dealers almost all will tell you that the MC cartridges is the way to go.

So, who are wrong/right, the few ( like me ) that speak that the MM type is a very good alternative or the ď whole ď cartridge industry that think and support the MC cartridge only valid alternative?

IMHO I think that both groups are not totally wrong/right and that the subject is not who is wrong/right but that the subject is : KNOW-HOW or NON KNOW-HOW about.

Many years ago when I was introduced to the ď high end ď the cartridges were almost MM type ones: Shure, Stanton, Pickering, Empire, etc, etc. In those time I remember that one dealer told me that if I really want to be nearest to the music I have to buy the Empire 4000 D ( they say for 4-channel reproduction as well. ) and this was truly my first encounter with a ď high end cartridge ď, I buy the 4000D I for 70.00 dls ( I canít pay 150.00 for the D III. ), btw the specs of these Empire cartridges were impressive even today, look: frequency response: 5-50,000Hz, channel separation: 35db, tracking force range: 0.25grs to 1.25grs!!!!!!!!, just impressive, but there are some cartridges which frequency response goes to 100,000Hz!!!!!!!!!!

I start to learn about and I follow to buying other MM type cartridges ( in those times I never imagine nothing about MC cartridges: I donít imagine of its existence!!!. ) like AKG, Micro Acoustics, ADC, B&O, Audio Technica, Sonus, etc, etc.

Years latter the same dealer told me about the MC marvelous cartridges and he introduce me to the Denon-103 following with the 103-D and the Fulton High performance, so I start to buy and hear MC cartridges. I start to read audio magazines about either cartridge type: MM and Mc ones.

I have to make changes in my audio system ( because of the low output of the MC cartridges and because I was learning how to improve the performance of my audio system ) and I follow what the reviewers/audio dealers ď speak ď about, I was un-experienced !!!!!!!, I was learning ( well Iím yet. ).

I can tell you many good/bad histories about but I donít want that the thread was/is boring for you, so please let me tell you what I learn and where Iím standing today about:

over the years I invested thousands of dollars on several top ď high end ď MC cartridges, from the Sumiko Celebration passing for Lyras, Koetsu, Van denHul, to Allaerts ones ( just name it and I can tell that I own or owned. ), what I already invest on MC cartridges represent almost 70-80% price of my audio system.

Suddenly I stop buying MC cartridges and decide to start again with some of the MM type cartridges that I already own and what I heard motivate me to start the search for more of those ď hidden jewels ď that are ( here and now ) the MM phono cartridges and learn why are so good and how to obtain its best quality sound reproduction ( as a fact I learn many things other than MM cartridge about. ).

I donít start this ď finding ď like a contest between MC and MM type cartridges.
The MC cartridges are as good as we already know and this is not the subject here, the subject is about MM type quality performance and how achieve the best with those cartridges.

First than all I try to identify and understand the most important characteristics ( and what they ď means ď. ) of the MM type cartridges ( something that in part I already have it because our phonolinepreamp design needs. ) and its differences with the MC ones.

Well, first than all is that are high output cartridges, very high compliance ones ( 50cu is not rare. ), low or very low tracking force ones, likes 47kOhms and up, susceptible to some capacitance changes, user stylus replacement, sometimes we can use a different replacement stylus making an improvement with out the necessity to buy the next top model in the cartridge line , low and very low weight cartridges, almost all of them are build of plastic material with aluminum cantilever and with eliptical or ď old ď line contact stylus ( shibata ) ( here we donít find: Jade/Coral/Titanium/etc, bodies or sophisticated build material cantilevers and sophisticated stylus shape. ), very veryÖ what I say? Extremely low prices from 40.00 to 300.00 dls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, well one of my cartridges I buy it for 8.99 dls ( one month ago ): WOW!!!!!!, so any one of you can/could have/buy ten to twenty MM cartridges for the price of one of the MC cartridge you own today and the good notice is that is a chance that those 10-20 MM type cartridges even the quality performance of your MC cartridge or beat it.

Other characteristics is that the builders show how proud they were/are on its MM type cartridges design, almost all those cartridges comes with a first rate box, comes with charts/diagrams of its frequency response and cartridge channel separation ( where they tell us which test recording use it, with which VTF, at which temperature, etc, etc. ), comes with a very wide explanation of the whyís and howís of its design and the usual explanation to mount the cartridge along with a very wide list of specifications ( that were the envy of any of today MC ones where sometimes we really donít know nothing about. ), comes with a set of screws/nuts, comes with a stylus brush and even with stylus cleaning fluid!!!!!!!!!, my GOD. Well, there are cartridges like the Supex SM 100MK2 that comes with two different stylus!!!! One with spherical and one with elliptical/shibata shape and dear friends all those in the same low low price!!!!!!!!!!!

Almost all the cartridges I own you can find it through Ebay and Agon and through cartridge dealers and donít worry if you loose/broke the stylus cartridge or you find the cartridge but with out stylus, you always can/could find the stylus replacement, no problem about there are some stylus and cartridge sources.

When Iím talking about MM type cartridges Iím refer to different types: moving magnet, moving iron, moving flux, electret, variable reluctance, induced magnet, etc, etc. ( here is not the place to explain the differences on all those MM type cartridges. Maybe on other future thread. ).

I made all my very long ( time consuming ) cartridge tests using four different TTís: Acoustic Signature Analog One MK2, Micro Seiki RX-5000, Luxman PD 310 and Technics SP-10 MK2, I use only removable headshell S and J shape tonearms with 15mm on overhang, I use different material build/ shape design /weight headshells. I test each cartridge in at least three different tonearms and some times in 3-4 different headshells till I find the ď right ď match where the cartridge perform the best, no Iím not saying that I already finish or that I already find the ď perfect ď match: cartridge/headshell/tonearm but I think Iím near that ideal target.

Through my testing experience I learn/ confirm that trying to find the right tonearm/headshell for any cartridge is well worth the effort and more important that be changing the TT. When I switch from a TT to another different one the changes on the quality cartridge performance were/are minimal in comparison to a change in the tonearm/headshell, this fact was consistent with any of those cartridges including MC ones.

So after the Phonolinepreamplifier IMHO the tonearm/headshell match for any cartridge is the more important subject, it is so important and complex that in the same tonearm ( with the same headshell wires ) but with different headshell ( even when the headshell weight were the same ) shape or build material headshell the quality cartridge performance can/could be way different.

All those experiences told me that chances are that the cartridge that you own ( MC or MM ) is not performing at its best because chances are that the tonearm you own is not the best match for that cartridge!!!!!!, so imagine what do you can/could hear when your cartridge is or will be on the right tonearm???!!!!!!!!, IMHO there are ( till today ) no single ( any type at any price ) perfect universal tonearm. IMHO there is no ď the best tonearm ď, what exist or could exist is a ď best tonearm match for ď that ď cartridge ď, but thatís all. Of course that are ď lucky ď tonearms that are very good match for more than one cartridge but donít for every single cartridge.

I posted several times that Iím not a tonearm collector, that I own all those tonearms to have alternatives for my cartridges and with removable headshells my 15 tonearms are really like 100+ tonearms : a very wide options/alternatives for almost any cartridge!!!!!!

You can find several of these MM type cartridges new brand or NOS like: Ortofon, Nagaoka, Audio Technica, Astatic, B&O, Rega, Empire, Sonus Reson,Goldring,Clearaudio, Grado, Shelter, Garrot, etc. and all of them second hand in very good operational condition. As a fact I buy two and even three cartridges of the same model in some of the cartridges ( so right now I have some samples that I think I donít use any more. ) to prevent that one of them arrive in non operational condition but Iím glad to say that all them arrive in very fine conditions. I buy one or two of the cartridges with no stylus or with the stylus out of work but I donít have any trouble because I could find the stylus replacement on different sources and in some case the original new replacement.

All these buy/find cartridges was very time consuming and we have to have a lot of patience and a little lucky to obtain what we are looking for but I can asure you that is worth of it.

Ok, I think it is time to share my performance cartridge findings:

first we have to have a Phonolinepreamplifier with a very good MM phono stage ( at least at the same level that the MC stage. ). Iím lucky because my Phonolinepreamplifier has two independent phono stages, one for the MM and one for MC: both were designed for the specifics needs of each cartridge type, MM or MC that have different needs.

we need a decent TT and decent tonearm.

we have to load the MM cartridges not at 47K but at 100K ( at least 75K not less. ).

I find that using 47K ( a standard manufacture recommendation ) prevent to obtain the best quality performance, 100K make the difference. I try this with all those MM type cartridges and in all of them I achieve the best performance with 100K load impedance.

I find too that using the manufacturer capacitance advise not always is for the better, till ď the end of the day ď I find that between 100-150pf ( total capacitance including cable capacitance. ) all the cartridges performs at its best.

I start to change the load impedance on MM cartridges like a synonymous that what many of us made with MC cartridges where we try with different load impedance values, latter I read on the Empire 4000 DIII that the precise load impedance must be 100kOhms and in a white paper of some Grace F9 tests the used impedance value was 100kOhms, the same that I read on other operational MM cartridge manual and my ears tell/told me that 100kOhms is ď the value ď.

Before I go on I want to remember you that several of those MM type cartridges ( almost all ) were build more than 30+ years ago!!!!!!!! and today performs at the same top quality level than today MC/MM top quality cartridges!!!!!, any brand at any price and in some ways beat it.

I use 4-5 recordings that I know very well and that give me the right answers to know that any cartridge is performing at its best or near it. Many times what I heard through those recordings were fine: everything were on target however the music donít come ď alive ď donít ď tell me ď nothing, I was not feeling the emotion that the music can communicate. In those cartridge cases I have to try it in other tonearm and/or with a different headshell till the ď feelings comes ď and only when this was achieved I then was satisfied.

All the tests were made with a volume level ( SPL ) where the recording ď shines ď and comes alive like in a live event. Sometimes changing the volume level by 1-1.5 db fixed everything.

Of course that the people that in a regular manner attend to hear/heard live music it will be more easy to know when something is right or wrong.

Well, Raul go on!!: one characteristic on the MM cartridges set-up was that almost all them likes to ride with a positive ( little/small ) VTA only the Grace Ruby and F9E and Sonus Gold Blue likes a negative VTA , on the other hand with the Nagaoka MP 50 Super and the Ortofonís I use a flat VTA.

Regarding the VTF I use the manufacturer advise and sometimes 0.1+grs.
Of course that I made fine tuning through moderate changes in the Azymuth and for anti-skate I use between half/third VTF value.

I use different material build headshells: aluminum, composite aluminum, magnesium, composite magnesium, ceramic, wood and non magnetic stainless steel, these cartridges comes from Audio Technica, Denon, SAEC, Technics, Fidelity Research, Belldream, Grace, Nagaoka, Koetsu, Dynavector and Audiocraft.
All of them but the wood made ( the wood does not likes to any cartridge. ) very good job . It is here where a cartridge could seems good or very good depending of the headshell where is mounted and the tonearm.
Example, I have hard time with some of those cartridge like the Audio Technica AT 20SS where its performance was on the bright sound that sometimes was harsh till I find that the ceramic headshell was/is the right match now this cartridge perform beautiful, something similar happen with the Nagaoka ( Jeweltone in Japan ), Shelter , Grace, Garrot , AKG and B&O but when were mounted in the right headshell/tonearm all them performs great.

Other things that you have to know: I use two different cooper headshell wires, both very neutral and with similar ď sound ď and I use three different phono cables, all three very neutral too with some differences on the sound performance but nothing that ď makes the difference ď on the quality sound of any of my cartridges, either MM or MC, btw I know extremely well those phono cables: Analysis Plus, Harmonic Technologies and Kimber Kable ( all three the silver models. ), finally and donít less important is that those phono cables were wired in balanced way to take advantage of my Phonolinepreamp fully balanced design.

What do you note the first time you put your MM cartridge on the record?, well a total absence of noise/hum or the like that you have through your MC cartridges ( and that is not a cartridge problem but a Phonolinepreamp problem due to the low output of the MC cartridges. ), a dead silent black ( beautiful ) soundstage where appear the MUSIC performance, this experience alone is worth it.

The second and maybe the most important MM cartridge characteristic is that you hear/heard the MUSIC flow/run extremely ď easy ď with no distracting sound distortions/artifacts ( I canít explain exactly this very important subject but it is wonderful ) even you can hear/heard ď sounds/notes ď that you never before heard it and you even donít know exist on the recording: what a experience!!!!!!!!!!!

IMHO I think that the MUSIC run so easily through a MM cartridge due ( between other facts ) to its very high compliance characteristic on almost any MM cartridge.

This very high compliance permit ( between other things like be less sensitive to out-center hole records. ) to these cartridges stay always in contact with the groove and never loose that groove contact not even on the grooves that were recorded at very high velocity, something that a low/medium cartridge compliance canít achieve, due to this low/medium compliance characteristic the MC cartridges loose ( time to time and depending of the recorded velocity ) groove contact ( minute extremely minute loose contact, but exist. ) and the quality sound performance suffer about and we can hear it, the same pass with the MC cartridges when are playing the inner grooves on a record instead the very high compliance MM cartridges because has better tracking drive perform better than the MC ones at inner record grooves and here too we can hear it.

Btw, some Agoners ask very worried ( on more than one Agon thread ) that its cartridge canít track ( clean ) the cannons on the 1812 Telarc recording and usually the answers that different people posted were something like this: ďĒĒĒ donít worry about other than that Telarc recording no other commercial recording comes recorded at that so high velocity, if you donít have trouble with other of your LPís then stay calm. ďĒĒĒĒ

Well, this standard answer have some ď sense ď but the people ( like me ) that already has/have the experience to hear/heard a MM or MC ( like the Ortofon MC 2000 or the Denon DS1, high compliance Mc cartridges. ) cartridge that pass easily the 1812 Telarc test can tell us that those cartridges make a huge difference in the quality sound reproduction of any ď normal ď recording, so it is more important that what we think to have a better cartridge tracking groove drive!!!!

There are many facts around the MM cartridge subject but till we try it in the right set-up it will be ( for some people ) difficult to understand ď those beauties ď. Something that I admire on the MM cartridges is how ( almost all of them ) they handle the frequency extremes: the low bass with the right pitch/heft/tight/vivid with no colorations of the kind ď organic !!Ē that many non know-how people speak about, the highs neutral/open/transparent/airy believable like the live music, these frequency extremes handle make that the MUSIC flow in our minds to wake up our feelings/emotions that at ď the end of the day ď is all what a music lover is looking for.
These not means that these cartridges donít shine on the midrange because they do too and they have very good soundstage but here is more system/room dependent.

Well we have a very good alternative on the ( very low price ) MM type cartridges to achieve that music target and Iím not saying that you change your MC cartridge for a MM one: NO, what Iím trying to tell you is that it is worth to have ( as many you can buy/find ) the MM type cartridges along your MC ones

I want to tell you that I can live happy with any of those MM cartridges and Iím not saying with this that all of them perform at the same quality level NO!! what Iím saying is that all of them are very good performers, all of them approach you nearest to the music.

If you ask me which one is the best I can tell you that this will be a very hard ď call ď an almost impossible to decide, I think that I can make a difference between the very good ones and the stellar ones where IMHO the next cartridges belongs to this group:

Audio Technica ATML 170 and 180 OCC, Grado The Amber Tribute, Grace Ruby, Garrot P77, Nagaoka MP-50 Super, B&O MMC2 and MMC20CL, AKG P8ES SuperNova, Reson Reca ,Astatic MF-100 and Stanton LZS 981.

There are other ones that are really near this group: ADC Astrion, Supex MF-100 MK2, Micro Acoustics MA630/830, Empire 750 LTD and 600LAC, Sonus Dimension 5, Astatic MF-200 and 300 and the Acutex 320III.

The other ones are very good too but less refined ones.
I try too ( owned or borrowed for a friend ) the Shure IV and VMR, Music maker 2-3 and Clearaudio Virtuoso/Maestro, from these I could recommended only the Clearaudios the Shureís and Music Maker are almost mediocre ones performers.
I forgot I try to the B&O Soundsmith versions, well this cartridges are good but are different from the original B&O ( that I prefer. ) due that the Sounsmith ones use ruby cantilevers instead the original B&O sapphire ones that for what I tested sounds more natural and less hi-fi like the ruby ones.

What I learn other that the importance on the quality sound reproduction through MM type cartridges?, well that unfortunately the advance in the design looking for a better quality cartridge performers advance almost nothing either on MM and MC cartridges.

Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TTís and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, Iím not saying that some cartridges designs donít grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today Koetsuís are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones donít advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them easily.

Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment, but this is only my HO.

I know that there are many things that I forgot and many other things that we have to think about but what you can read here is IMHO a good point to start.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Rauliruegas  (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)

01-15-08
  Responses (8901-8950 of 11581)
Click title to read one, or click date to read all below it.

12-13-12   Dear lewm: the velodyne acelerometer/servo senses 16,000 tim ...   Rauliruegas

12-13-12   Dear firneds: precept 440 made by at?, these experiences for ...   Rauliruegas

12-14-12   Nandric, my package is not lost its at post office according ...   Travbrow

12-14-12   Travbrow, deed you try (usa) customs? with your tracktrace n ...   Nandric

12-13-12   Timeltel, hi tom. your imput ref. (the pickering dtl-4s), g ...   Griffithds

12-14-12   Don, i think it was the pickering tl-4s, or something close ...   Lewm

12-14-12   Dear lewm: ++++ " explain to me why your own system may ...   Rauliruegas

12-14-12   Dear raul: "every single improvement in my system nee ...   Dgarretson

12-14-12   Regards, raul: thanks for your comments. as mentioned, there ...   Timeltel

12-14-12   Nandric, i don't think you understand. i know the package is ...   Travbrow

12-14-12   Dear dgarretson: even that imho my velodynes are " righ ...   Rauliruegas

12-14-12   Lewm, i have seen the "1's", the "2's" ...   Griffithds

12-14-12   Lew, not to speak for dave p but i'm fairly certain the pick ...   Dean_man

12-14-12   Travbow, "if i would of known the extra trouble us dam ...   Griffithds

12-15-12   greetings professor, i know what you mean and i sympathise. ...   Halcro

12-15-12   Regards, halcro: condolences, henry. having given it conside ...   Timeltel

12-15-12   Regards, griffithds: following your saga of the tl4s with in ...   Timeltel

12-15-12   I have now posted twice in vain. neither post appears here. ...   Lewm

12-15-12: Timeltel
Regards, Lewm: That surprising bit of data is from Boston University, Department of Physics. In the most sincere manner possible, if anyone can supply other figures it would be appreciated. AC is measured on a time scale (Hz), cyclical & there is an average at the receptacle. Here it averages 124v AC.

A quote, again from Boston College: "Voltage from a wall socket is known as the root mean square, or rms, average. Because the voltage varies sinusoidally, with as much positive as negative, doing a straight average would get you zero for the average voltage". Voltage is then an average of the range from positive to negative. BTW, 117v rms is my observed low, 128v rms for high.

R(oot) m(ean) s(quare) value is obtained:
first, square everything
second, average.
third, take the square root of the average.

For a clear description: http://www.raeng.org.uk/education/diploma/maths/pdf/exemplars_engineering/8_RMS.pdf

Having dabbled around with pencil & paper for a tormented moment, the broadest possible expression is that rms voltage is a (nom) 70% of peak. 67% was a repeated outcome. As this is a square root calculation involving infinite variables, neither figure should be taken as correct.

Peace,

Timeltel  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-15-12: Griffithds
Good Morning Tom,

I have sent an email to PickeringUK asking them about that very question. I have bought several stylus's from Turntableneedle.com and know them to be a very reputable supplier. I am confident that what I'm about to receive from them will actually be an original Pickering styli. I'm wondering if when Pickering/Stanton moved from New York to Florida, if they started replacing the "Sterohedron" with a "line contact"? It would have been a lot easier to obtain. I'm reminded of the fact that their move to Florida was a cost cutting move. One more point to conceder. There is no mention of a line contact stylus in Richard Steinfelds handbook. His publication follows Stanton/Pickering cartridge/styli manufacturing during the "Golden age of analog". This would be up to but not after the Florida move. I am not doubting PickeringUK statements about selling original Pickering styli. But I'm beginning to think that a lot of what's being sold by PickeringUK was manufactured after the Florida move. When Stanton/Pickering went "disco".
Regards,
Don

Griffithds  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-15-12: Griffithds
Tom,

Just received a reply from Turntableneedles.com. It was a confirmed NOS Stereohedron styli. Still waiting for PickeringUKs reply.

Regards,
Don

Griffithds  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-15-12: Griffithds
Tom and all interested.
The folowing is my question and the reply from PickeringUK.

__________________________________________________
Reply:
Stereohedron is Pickering's name for their line contact tips.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: griffithds@jaws.bz
To: eSales@PickeringUK.com
Subject: Stylus question
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012

Good Morning,

You have a DTL-4S for sale stated as a line contact. I have a original Pickering DTL-4S that is a Stereohedron. Is the difference between the two styli a matter of mine is from New York plant and yours is from the Flordia plant? If there is some other reason (unnown to me), for the two styli profiles, both being a DTL-4S. Thank you for your reply in advance.
Regards,
Don Griffith
____________________________________________________

First time I have ever heard of a Stereohedron refered to as another name for line contact! Shibata, yes, but line contact?

Griffithds  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-16-12: Rauliruegas
Dear Giffithds: Shibata, Stereohedron and several other cartridge manufacturer stylus as the analog6 from AKG and the like at the end was not eliptical but more as line contact with " superior "/wide contact groove.
There are several manufacturer " line contact " versions. It's right the name " line contact for them ? well is IMHO not important what is important is that as the Shibata or the analog-6 or even the MR the Stereohedron has a wider groove contact.

What is more complicated is that some manufacturers had 2-3 versions of the same stylus shape where some of them disclosed it but other noprmally did not.

Btw, I already bought a DTL-4S in NOS condition for the non-Pmount Pickering cartridge version. I think could be a difference aginst my XV5000/981 or the 7500 that are S2 versions on the stylus shape.

Could be a quality performance diffrence in between the S2 and the S stylus versions?, we will see when I have on hand but you already own all those stylus shape versions, could you share with us the differences that you experienced on the 981 ( H ) with the TL4S against the 981 native one stylus?, thank you in advance.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Rauliruegas  (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-16-12: Rauliruegas
Dear Halcro: It's weird what happen with your DM10 because normally that kind of audio level electronics were designed to protect the differeent stages against that kind of events and many others. I understand this is the seond time in the last few months that your DM10 ( for different kind of events. ) was out of work. I don't like it that situation and maybe is time to think in the possibility of a change of Phonolinepreamp.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Rauliruegas  (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-16-12: Travbrow
Thanks for the recommendation Griffiths, unfortunately I can't send the P100CMKIV anywhere because I don't have it. I sent another email to Axel to ask for acknowledgement if he picked up my cartridge and stylus. Will update on further developments, funny he answered all my emails when I inquired about sending the cartridge to him. As of now I would not recommend anyone send a valuable cartridge to Axel.
Travbrow  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-16-12: Griffithds
Correction:
Statement I made on 12/10/12

"Before anyone misunderstands, the TL4S that Tom (timeltel), and I have been talking about is a M/M type stylus. That means 880/881s and above line of cartridges. Anything below, XV15, 680/681 are M/I.
I would hate to have someone with a 681EEES buy a TL4S, on our recommendation, only to discover it doesn't work!"

The TL4S is NOT a M/M. It is a M/I. It will NOT work on the 880/881 and above. Anything below that line of cartridges, the XV15, 680/681 is acceptable.
Just the opposite of what I stated. My deepest apppolgies to all for my mistake!
I received the TL4S today and mounted it on a HLZ body. Dead quite. Nothing. That's when I started to compare my notes with Richards "Stanton/Pickering handbook" and discovered my notes were not correct.
I then mounted my XV-15/750E, verified that everything was working, then swapped styli. The TL4S just creamed the much regarded 750E. More authoritive bass, greater dynamics overall with cleaner and more extended highs. This was with "0" hours of break-in.
The best Stanton/Pickering M/I that I own is the Stanton L747S (D74S stylus). Stanton only had one M/I above it and that was the L847S (D84S stylus).
I have mounted the TL4S on the L747S body. No contest there either. Easily bettered the highly thought of D74S which BTW is also a Sterohedron styli. I now have just over 7 hours on the L747S/TL4S and have to state, this is one hell of a stylus.
My posts have been taking 12+ hours to appear on this thread so by the time you read this, I will have compared it to Stanton's top cartridges, the 981 LZS and the HZS. This stylus is definitely a winner.
Regards,
Don

Griffithds  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-16-12: Timeltel
Regards Griffithds: The Stanton/Pickering carts have me puzzled. Vinyl Engine Data Base is often incorrect, glad to have a Stantering Guru on board. That would be you, Don.

Thanks for keeping us informed.

Peace,

Timeltel  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-16-12: Acman3
Griffithds, have you tried the TL4s cartridge with it's own stylus?
Acman3  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-16-12: Rauliruegas
Dear griffithds: Stupid of me because now I will have a Pickering stylus with no cartridge to hear it.

I'm not angry with your wrong statement that I followed but with my self because I always make a research before I to take any single audio action but this time.
My mistake was the Richard reference you did because he is the real Stanton/Pickering guru ( that I know him very well through Lenco forum. ) and if he was your reference then I take your statement for sure.

Never mind as I said was my mistake. I hope that in the future that error by my self could give me some reward: who knows?

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Rauliruegas  (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-16-12: Griffithds
Raul,

Do you know how to correct data on the Vinyl Engine Cartridge Database? It states all Pickering TL-(x) cartridges are M/M. Lets not allow history to repeat itself!
Regards,
Don

Griffithds  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-16-12: Griffithds
Raul,

Over the last few years, I have been following various forums discussing the Stanton/Pickering cartridges. I have a little note book on just them. Before the Richards handbook, the only information/knowledge I had was from my notebook of statements made by forum members that I trusted or just felt had correct knowledge. Richards handbook greatly added to that data base. I also bought the stylus thinking (from my notes), that the M/M line is what this stylus supported. Once I realized something was wrong, I went looking in Richards reference handbook for answers. Thumbing thru, I found nothing pertaining to the TL line. I had to reread the handbook from page 1. When I got to page 48, at the bottom of the page is a small list of cartridges/styli with cross-References to the line of like Stanton/Pickering cartridges. The TL-4Super cross-ref. is to the Stanton/Pickering M/I line. This little tidbit of information is the only mention of any of the TL line of cartridges. Like I said, I had to reread the entire handbook to find it. I have proven it to be true.
There are two Stanton Guru's (ex employees), on that forum you reference. They both readily admit to not knowing everything but they are far more knowledgeable than I.
For you, this cartridge journey will be like the Goldring G800. Cheap body (Stanton/Pickering M/I series), with surprise stylus (DTL-4S), = goldmine. You will not be disappointed.
Regards,
Don

Griffithds  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-16-12: Griffithds
My post Dated 12-16-12 took 17 hours to get printed! Moderator states 4-8 hours. When is the high speed improvement suppose to take effect?
Griffithds  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-16-12: Griffithds
Hi Acmam3

I have not tried a TL-4S cartridge, but I do now have my eye on a TL-3 body. What I'm trying to determine is if the TL-(X) bodies are any different than the TL(X)S bodies. Until Timeltel mentioned the DTL-4S stylus, I had not given the cartridge line much thought. I owe Tom a thank you for mentioning it in a previous post, thereby peeking my interest. From Richards handbook, it appears the TL-(x)S cartridge "bodies" are all the same. Only the stylus quality being the deciding factor for improvements in the "S" line. I am quite awe struck with the DTL-4S stylus top flight performance. I think it being thought of as a "P" mount type, has allowed most of us to overlook it. That is until now!
Regards,
Don

Griffithds  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-16-12: Griffithds
Raul,

"Btw, I already bought a DTL-4S in NOS condition for the non-Pmount Pickering cartridge version,"

Is yours the tall Stanton looking version, or the short flat Pickering looking version. Mine looks like a Stanton housing.
Regards,
Don

Griffithds  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-17-12: Halcro
Dear Professor and Raul,
Sorry to give the impression that my phono-stage is 'down'.........I was merely sympathising with the Professor's frustrations at his system sounding poorly from time to time?
My Halcro preamp is working perfectly......however last week.....outside work on the power cables caused havoc with the 'sound' of the built-in phono stage despite the intervention of the Shindo power conditioner?
All is back to normal at present :-)

Halcro  (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-17-12: Travbrow
Update, Axel sent email explaining the situation. Things work a little different in Germany. He picked up the cartridge at his customer office after receiving letter notifying that package is there for pick-up. He needs to drive 60KM to pick-up his packages.

I am confident that every thing will go well. Just was confused about the tracking info and the different way Axel handles his mail.

Travbrow  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-17-12: Rauliruegas
Dear Griffithds: I understand what happened there. With cartridge manufacturers like Empire/Stanton/Pickering/AT/Signet/AKG/Acutex and the like there are always some kind of mix-up. In this same thread almost all of us time to time made it mistakes because so many different cartridge models of those vintage manufacturers and no one knows everything of everything especially with this " new " vintage cartridges.
I remember " problems with the Empire series 1000 and 900, with the AKG too and we all know the confusion with those flat nose/long nose Acutex.

My first Acutex was a flat nose one and before arrived I bought a stylus replacement that when I received was for the long nose version but both cartridges has the same model so whom can imagine Acutex designed the same model description in two versions????

After some errors from my part I took the task to research always before take action but this time I did it but maybe even with that research could be happened the same.

As I said I'm not angry with you or really worried about because now a new journey started to me : the TL-3 cartridge body.

To fix the VE cartridge data errors I think you have to put in contact with them and in specific with the persons that mantain that data bases.

I don't receive yet my TL4S stylus replacements but I saw at the picture is the flat Pickering version.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Rauliruegas  (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-17-12: Rauliruegas
Dear Travbrow: Good, now you are " calm " because with no answer to our email we go on " desesperation ", at least is what happen to me in that situation.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Rauliruegas  (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-17-12: Rauliruegas
Dear Halcro: Thank's for the clarification about. I was thinking something really bad because even you started a thread only for that " event ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Rauliruegas  (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-17-12: Nandric
Dear Raul, Even your errors have value for us. The stylus
error in particulare has the therapeutic value. I bought at least 8 single styli but actually thought that this is very smart thing to do. Those are namely much more difficult to get then the 'bodies'. I have no idea how to write the plural by corpus.

Regards,

Nandric  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-17-12: Timeltel
Regards, Halcro: Humidity at 76%, barometer is 29.66 millibars. Outside temp. 48F, foggy this morning. Elec. service is holding a steady 125v. Old rig is cranking out out some pretty good soundstage, dynamics & ambience.

Running in an AT ML150 OCC on a Yamamoto HS-2, bronze plate above cherry/10.5gm mass. Crystal clear optimized line contact on ruby. Sounds good, Soundsmith does beautiful work & everything's "in the groove".

Turning over every stone for a DTL-4S, have both XV-15 & 681 MI generator bodies (thanks for that info, Don), keeping a sharp eye out for a TL body. Vinyl Engine Data Base is a WIKI, caveats apply.

Horoscope says Justin Beeber loves me today, crystal ball says if your name is Henry it's a good day for vinyl in Oz.

Life is good, best wishes for this holiday & any other season.

Peace, ALL.

Timeltel  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-17-12: Lewm
Timeltel: To quote Wikipedia: "Because of their usefulness in carrying out power calculations, listed voltages for power outlets, e.g. 120 V (USA) or 230 V (Europe), are almost always quoted in RMS values, and not peak values."

I know all about RMS. Breaking down the AC into maxima and minima is not really to the point, if you are worrying about over-voltage frying your gear. It's RMS that counts. If your RMS voltage goes well above 120V, it is a given that the positive going peak of the sinusoidal wave form will also have gone way up. I guess you know this; I do too. I think I just mis-read you original post on the subject.

By the way, you guys would get into a lot less trouble, if you would only stick to the stylus assembly that the audio gods intended for use with your particular cartridge.

Lewm  (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-17-12: Rauliruegas
Dear Lewm: +++++ " By the way, you guys would get into a lot less trouble, if you would only stick to the stylus assembly that the audio gods intended for use with your particular cartridge. " +++++

yes, less problems but less learning/discover " new and exiciting " experiences too.

My latest 981 HZS experiences confirm my statement because thank's that I'm not sticked to the 981HZS and tested with the 5000XVS many of us learned about.

I think that each one of us are looking for the " best " we can achieve and that's why some of us are hyperactive on that subject.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Rauliruegas  (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-17-12: Griffithds
Tom,
The following quote is from a person on the Lenco forum in reply to a question I put forth to Richard. What he has said sort of snaps everything into focus.

"Your Stanton L747S, and the other L7x7 models: Stanton 680 in a P-Mount. Exact model
designation differs according to stylus.

The equivalent Pickerings are the TL series which are the Pickering XV-15 in a P-Mount.
Exact model designation (TLE, TL3-S, etc.) differs according to stylus."

Save yourself some money and just get the stylus. You already have 2 usable (identical), bodies.

Regards,
Don

Griffithds  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-17-12: Lewm
Nandric, "Corpora", or "corpuses" will do. I think it's a second declension noun in Latin.
Lewm  (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-17-12: Timeltel
Regards, Lew: Apologies for not having qualified that figure, leaving you in the position of an informed audio enthusiast deliberating the merits of a Soundesign "1,000 watt Peak Power" boom box at the supermarket.

Peace,

Timeltel  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-17-12: Timeltel
Regards, Griffithds: Thanks again. A reminder, the painted white, gray, then silver and gold XV-15 motors are of increasingly tighter spec., calibrated 681 bodies (this also implies a lab-matched stylus) will be engraved with a registration #. Twin sons from different fathers, both are four coil generators.

Peace,

Timeltel  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-18-12: Jbethree

Corpora.

Jbethree  (Answers | This Thread)


12-17-12: Griffithds
Thanks, Tom,

I will be looking for some Gold XV-15 motors.
This DTL-4S is the top "P mount" Pickering stylus. Would not its twin be the top Pickering stylus in the XV-15 line. Is that not the XV-15/1800S!
The Stanton twins to the TL line/XV-15 line was the 681 solid mount and the L7x7S "P" mount. There top stylus was the 681EEES and the D84S. You and I have a D74S which is a step down from the D84S. There is no doubt in my mind that the DTL-4S is better that the/our D74S. Like is said earlier, this DTL-4S is a winner. Thank you for bring it to my/our attention. Quite a find and I'm looking for another!
Regards,
Don

Griffithds  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)


12-18-12: Rauliruegas
Dear Griffithds/Timeltel: I decide to go for the TL3/4 cartridge body for my TL4S stylus. As Lewm said it: it was with those cartridge body the designer intented the best of both.

Stanton/Pickering are so " wide " in models that intent to test an almost " infinite " stylus alternatives in between could be not only " boring " and time consuming but maybe with small rewards for the huge " job " to do it and remember that to do it we have to buy cartridges/stylus.

I think that I will stay " calm " about Stanton/Pickering with my two Stanton 981 L/H version , the Pickering 5000XVS and the TL-4S.

Is there any reason to go on with? , I think not.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Rauliruegas  (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)



< Prev << 174 | 175 | 176 | 177 | 178 | 179 | 180 | 181 | 182 | 183 | 184 >> Next >

  Post your response
Subject


Your response

No html, but you may use markup tags


Username
Members only

Password