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Raul: why do you think there is so much resistance on this ... Jimjoyce25
Dear Jimjoyce25: There are many factors that contribute to develop a poor " image " on subwoofers specially in the high-end stereo music reproduction market.
If you remember in the past ( many years ago ) no one use subs, the speakers were designed with a low bass range down to 35-40 Hz in the " biggest " models, almost no one ( for home music reproduction ) made speakers designs with that additional 1.5 octave on the low bass ( there were some exeptions, my ADS ones are one of that exceptions, but not many. ). Many manufacturers perhaps decide that because a " normal " speaker that goes down ( flt-clean ) to 20Hz must be BIG ( difficult to have at home ) and expensive and maybe they think that there are no " music " down there.
This last subject were and still today are supported by reviewers and audio dealers that are whom give the advise to the customers, so they give a non correct information to us the customers, so we have a misunderstood on the subs subject.
But not only that, in those times when the people start to ask/use subs normaly they use one unit ( stnd alone where you need to buy an amplifier to power it. Not many self powered subs in those times. ) and only to re-inforce the bass in their systems but with out any know-how or the right advise to why and how to do it ( some models even came with a fixed low-pass frequency and with out almost any facilities to really " blend " with your system. ), as time goes on many of these sub's users came disatisfied with the subs and put on sale and in their minds the figure of a subs were a " bad move " and they pass their experiences on the subject to other people.
If you check on audio magazines ( any ) of those times I can't remember any single reviewer that owned subs in his systems even the subs magazines reviewes were almost none, so the for the customers the subs were nothing or a " must " to have
Unfortunately the commercial subs came with no-facilities in the crossover, many with out amplifier, not so good drivers/woofers, not so good electronics ( even today some sub manufacturer IMHO don't put interest in the quality needs on the subs. That's why some of us made mods on them. ) and with almost no advise from any one. These anomalies make that many times the subs sound reproduction were of bad quality: only one note bam or boom boom and nothing more to appreciate.
The audio industry grow-up: better recordings, better quality speakers, better quality electronics and the like. The subs grow-up too but not at the same quality level than the other items and the audio magazines and audio dealers still with out support the subs subject, mainly IMHO because a very poor/small know-how about. So how the customers can think on the subs if no one speak about its advantages like a good alternative to improve the quality performance of almost any audio system? even the speaker manufacturers that build subs like Wilson, Krell, Thiel,, etc, etc, don't really promote their subs models, why? I can't be sure if it is for they do not have the know-how level or because they have it and goes against its full business, let me explain this last comment with an example:
if someone owns a WattP-8 and want to improve/up-grade the quality performance on his system through a new speakers ( normaly same manufacturer, in this case Wilson. ) almost always he/they think in the next top model: the MAXX3 instead to add subs to the WP8, this subs alternative it is not only less expensive but one that beats the MAXX3 quality performance but the manufacturer and the dealer say nothing about, never give to the customer this alternative.
There are a lot of mis-information , misunderstood and non know-how on the subs great alternative in a stereo systems. Many people are still thinking that the subs are for HTS and not to listen " serious music " ( even manufacturers like REL that have not a high-pass filter in its crossover. ). Unfortunately is sad that all these people are loosing the best an ever opportunity to really improve the quality performance in their home systems.
In this thread we can read many of the advantages adding two subs in real stereo fashion where the main one is not IMHO " only " to achieve low bass but improve the quality performance of the main speakers!, till the people understand the why's and how's on the subs subject they will continue hearing ( obviously not all. ) home systems with a " weak " leg.
Yes, IMHO everywhere ( manufacturers, reviewers, dealers. Not all. ) non know-how on the subject is the main " culprit ", of course that money or space/place's limitations have a role too.
Like everything the subs subject is an educational one, many audio people are at the low subs learning curve, sooner or latter we all will grow-up on that learning curve where the rewards are almost incredible and of paramount importance in favor of the MUSIC perception.
There are other factors that have influence but it will be too long to analyze each one even I can be wrong on what I think.
What do you think? do you want to grow-up? do you want to be better?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Rauliruegas (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
Hi raul, i'm late arriving at this party and have not read t ... Pryso
Dear pryso: thank you to share your experiences about are re ... Rauliruegas
Raul: i've been a convert since 1990. Jimjoyce25
Lord no the 7in woofers on my thiels go plenty enough deep f ... Velocityofhue
Dear velocityyofhue: as i posted and from my point of view ... Rauliruegas
Big speakers need love to raul. look at oneobgyn. he's got h ... Gregadd
Dear gregadd: that system is a " impressive " cost ... Rauliruegas
As usual raul you are not without an good opinion. dragging ... Gregadd
The sub's alternative imho is a tremendous " tool " ... Rauliruegas
Dear gregadd: no fight, i respect that great system owner: i ... Rauliruegas
Raul: i agree with your basic thesis about using stereo pai ... Gmorris
Dear gmorris: as you point out a different sub's integration ... Rauliruegas
"...maggies are down about 3db at about 30hz..." ... Gregadd
Dear gregadd: from the planar speakers the maggies are one t ... Rauliruegas
The aerial sw-12 takes a correct approach. while not cheap ( ... Gregadd
Dear gregadd: yes the aerial is very good option. its price ... Rauliruegas
Raul---what is your view of the method used in the legacy fo ... Jimjoyce25
Dear jim: this legay is a very nice approach/design that add ... Rauliruegas
Dear jim: other factor that could help to that legacy speake ... Rauliruegas
Raul, from my earlier post, you know i agree with the benefi ... Pryso
Dear pryso: the range ( high/low )i the imd depends mainly ... Rauliruegas
Dear pryso: imho i think that there are some non know-how on ... Rauliruegas
Dear pryso: the big evolution acoustic speakers are a good e ... Rauliruegas
For me as our living room is really big(11x12)i was hesitant ... Drummermitchell
Dear drummermitchel: nice to see that your sub's stereo inte ... Rauliruegas
Drummermitchel, did you mean to say "our living room is ... Pryso
Dear pryso: yes, i agree with you: not really big. this is ... Rauliruegas
It's kind of a joke as our living room is 11'x12",and y ... Drummermitchell
Dear pryso: my " ask " to m.levigne was because ( ... Rauliruegas
Dear pryso: i want to add ( a little late!. ) that even if t ... Rauliruegas
One of the things the speaker system needs to do is cover th ... Mapman
Dear mapman: +++++ " one of the things the speaker syst ... Rauliruegas
Rauliruegas, i would agree except for supertweeters with no ... Tbg
Dear tbg: the st integration in a system could be a " r ... Rauliruegas
Rauliruegas, i have no experience with the tannoys. my only ... Tbg
Dear tbg: in my system i really like st. i bought the tannoy ... Rauliruegas
Dear tbg: btw, ahee means: audio high end establishment. re ... Rauliruegas
Here's my system: bryston amp 4b sst c-series (2-channel) b ... Vuluongchitam
Vu, describe your listening room including size/approximate ... Mapman
Dear vuluongchitam: imho your studio 40 are good speakers an ... Rauliruegas
Everyone would benefit with a powered sub....amps run cleane ... Stringreen
I agree with stringreen and raul. you can get an all passive ... Johnnyb53
Everyone needs a powered subwoofer...if you have one, you ne ... Stringreen
Dear stringreen: harman/jbl people made several studies abou ... Rauliruegas
sounds to me like he *does* believe in faster bass, but some ... Johnnyb53
Dear johnnyb53: i think that the people can read the link an ... Rauliruegas
Dear stringreen: this is another harman white papers on subs ... Rauliruegas
Dear johnnyb53: this are the experiences that an agoner had ... Rauliruegas