AudiogoN Forums: The Emperor DAC has no Clothes

The Emperor DAC has no Clothes

I currently use the Rega DAC in a system comprised of Merlin TSM-MXr speakers on Skylan stands. Amp is the Manley Stingray II tube amp. Oppo CD player and Mac Mini feeds the Rega DAC with Pure Music and Cardas cables. My friends system is currently using an ARC integrated with Vanderteen 5a's. He's had the W4S Dac II, EE Minimax Plus, ARC 8 DAC and is currently trying out another borrowed Rega because I won't loan him mine again!

In recent weeks we've tried these DACs in both systems, tweaked and tried various setups. I posted in another thread that the Rega won out against the Minimax Plus and the W4S 2 and that he was partial to the little Centrance.

So here's the thing. The Rega and the ARC sound pretty much the same. So does the W4S 2 and the Minimax. We STRUGGLE to hear the tiny differences between these units! And by "struggle" I mean we use top level recordings and LISTEN LIKE MANIACS again and again. 99% of the time we could not pick these units apart. 100% of the we find that we could be happy with ANY of them! Of course there was a preference for the Rega and the ARC, but boy was it slight! The smallest tweak could shift the balance. A different set of cables, speakers or higher ceiling could easily effect things.

Between the two of us we have something like 65 years of experience with audio. I find it absolutely hilarious when someone posts that a DAC sounds "much" better than another DAC. How is it that we can't hear the same thing, nor can ANY of our friends? We certainly hear a HUGE difference in speakers and amps and very audible ones with cables. But GOOD stand-alone DACs appear to be doing a very good job. MOST people simply list the one or two they've heard in stores as their favorites. If you're looking for a "safe bet" in a DAC you can go with ANY of the models I mentioned above or some of the other fine units out there. Unless someone has your exact system, in the same room and your precise tastes, try not to worry overmuch about DAC A blowing away DAC B.

This was most apparent in trying out the EE Minimax Plus. He tried various tubes and it always sounded best in SS mode! And in that mode it sounded quite like all of the others and about as good as the much less expensive Centrance. So the point of this is to put your efforts and money into speakers and amp/pre. That's 95% of the type of sound you'll get. They determine the character of the system more than anything else.

Cheers!

Rob

Robbob (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)

02-13-12

Responses (1-59 of 59)

Click title to read one, or click date to read all below it.

02-14-12 Thanks for your post. appreciate the perspective it lends. i ... Foster_9

02-14-12 Congratulations! the secret is a secret no more. the vast ma ... Elizabeth

02-14-12 thanks for the amusing post! first of all it depends on the ... Audiooracle

02-14-12 This surprises me because we have to remember that a dac als ... Hifiharv

02-14-12 I, too, thank you for your post. i have yet to accept the d ... Gtortorella

02-14-12 Foster....here's another rub: the longer you live with a da ... Robbob

02-14-12 Elizabeth.... the problem is that many people write such co ... Robbob

02-14-12 Thank you rob for pulling back the curtain. i like my centr ... Nonoise

02-14-12 My dac rules: 1) almost all dac's have to choose between a ... Sibelius

02-14-12 I use the calyx dac having replaced the original ee minimax. ... Meiwan

02-14-12 As have said in the past, the placebo effect is alive and we ... Mrtennis

02-14-12 It seems to me having followed dac threads for a while and l ... David12

02-14-12 true, obviously, to some extent. however, it should be kept ... Almarg

02-14-12 To get to a certain level of resolution and quality i think ... Wildoats

02-14-12 The only way to compare dacs accurately is using a really lo ... Audioengr

02-14-12 So audioengr, other than the renowned mac mini, what are som ... Foster_9

02-14-12 The founder of musical fidelity, which hawks the $300 giant- ... Loomisjohnson

02-14-12 To the fellow who has the dealership....you're the first per ... Robbob

02-14-12 "one more thing, regarding the minimax sounding better ... Sibelius

02-14-12 From my years as a professional musician, i learned to never ... Chayro

02-14-12 Chayro - excellent post. i'm not implying that you're imply ... Kbarkamian

02-15-12 Chayro, i agree 100%. it's just that there are more ears tha ... Robbob

02-15-12 Sibelius, sometimes tubes don't match tubes in other compone ... Robbob

02-15-12 Robbob - i'm glad you took my post in the spirit it was inte ... Chayro

02-15-12 Rob - agree with you. i was fully expecting to prefer tube m ... Sibelius

02-15-12 "so audioengr, other than the renowned mac mini, what a ... Audioengr

02-15-12: Audioengr
Loomis wrote:

"about four to five percent of the cost of good value high-end electronics is in the actual electronics that do the work"

That may be the case for the V-DAC, because that company has marketing and lots of employees to pay salaries. They probably have 3X margins so they can sell worldwide through distributors etc.. This is a typical model for consumer electronics.

Some high-end companies however have very few employees, dont advertise, and put a LOT of cost into the products, causing their margins to be small and their prices to be higher. Most of these are smaller companies that sell direct. There are actually much better components available, including connectors, internal cabling, multi-layer high-quality silver-plated circuit boards, low dielectric absorption capacitors, low ESR capacitors, low inductance resistors. Clocks (oscillators) that produce lower jitter are expensive, very expensive. When a designer uses these parts in the design, the result is much higher cost, but also lower electrical noise levels, better dynamic slam, more clarity, wider and deeper soundstage and less harshness in the audio output. More analog-like. The performance is definitely better than less expensive designs.

This is not about op-amps and IC's. What makes a really stellar component is the other "stuff", as well as the implementation.

BTW, Read the review of the V-DAC in TAS. You will learn a few things about jitter.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Audioengr (Threads | Answers | This Thread)

02-15-12 Very interesting, all. rob, i've been following your experi ... Mezmo

02-15-12 More detail and resolution, does not intrinsically denote th ... Mrtennis

02-15-12 Hi mezmo: do you exclude the possibility that a tube dac , ... Mrtennis

02-15-12 "more detail and resolution, does not intrinsically den ... Sibelius

02-15-12 Mr. t: absolutely not, wouldn't say that i'm in a position t ... Mezmo

02-16-12 Well rob, again we have to disagree on this one. i am going ... Tubegroover

02-16-12 More detail and resolution, does not intrinsically denote th ... Robbob

02-16-12 Do you exclude the possibility that a tube dac , with a tube ... Robbob

02-16-12 Audioengr, very interesting post with many valid points abou ... Loomisjohnson

02-16-12 Well then i guess i'm going to have to try the rega just for ... Tubegroover

02-16-12 My experience has also been that the impact of a tube in a c ... Sibelius

02-16-12 Lots of interesting comments on this thread. i think there’s ... Bryoncunningham

02-16-12 I don't see how one can generalize that tubes in dacs or cd ... Mrtennis

02-16-12 The point i attemped to make, aside from subjective impressi ... Tubegroover

02-16-12 Tubegroover.... actually, we agree! i agree there are diffe ... Robbob

02-16-12 Nice post, bryon. i can't resist commenting, though, that ... Learsfool

02-17-12 Well rob i certainly wouldn't disagree with your comment tha ... Tubegroover

02-17-12 I am going to break down my own experience over the years in ... Chesebert

02-17-12 Chesebert "to op, if all you do is dither around $1k ... Jult52

02-17-12 I'm sorry...did someone just mention a dac costing 10k is ne ... Robbob

02-18-12 Assuming you are not trolling. for someone who had spent few ... Chesebert

02-18-12 Learsfool, i like what you said about "build quality.&q ... Foster_9

02-18-12 If spending a lot on hifi seems stupid, you would be stupid ... Chayro

02-18-12 20k should be a drop in he bucket for you - just think of it ... Robbob

02-18-12 i introduced the distinction between "build quality&qu ... Bryoncunningham

02-18-12 Just accept that others can hear things you can't and others ... Robbob

02-19-12 Hi bryon - yes, we are basically in agreement. the whole bu ... Learsfool

02-19-12 Rob, here's one reviewer's thoughts... i respect your concl ... Douglas_schroeder

02-19-12 Hi doug: regarding changes to the opamps, what improvements ... Mrtennis

02-19-12 Douglas, thanks for your comments. i've made my points based ... Robbob

02-19-12 All it takes is an active preamp and an inferior sd/pdif cab ... Audioengr

02-19-12 i think you're probably right about this, learsfool. and i ... Bryoncunningham