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The Emperor DAC has no Clothes

I currently use the Rega DAC in a system comprised of Merlin TSM-MXr speakers on Skylan stands. Amp is the Manley Stingray II tube amp. Oppo CD player and Mac Mini feeds the Rega DAC with Pure Music and Cardas cables. My friends system is currently using an ARC integrated with Vanderteen 5a's. He's had the W4S Dac II, EE Minimax Plus, ARC 8 DAC and is currently trying out another borrowed Rega because I won't loan him mine again! In recent weeks we've tried these DACs in both systems, tweaked and tried various setups. I posted in another thread that the Rega won out against the Minimax Plus and the W4S 2 and that he was partial to the little Centrance. So here's the thing. The Rega and the ARC sound pretty much the same. So does the W4S 2 and the Minimax. We STRUGGLE to hear the tiny differences between these units! And by "struggle" I mean we use top level recordings and LISTEN LIKE MANIACS again and again. 99% of the time we could not pick these units apart. 100% of the we find that we could be happy with ANY of them! Of course there was a preference for the Rega and the ARC, but boy was it slight! The smallest tweak could shift the balance. A different set of cables, speakers or higher ceiling could easily effect things. Between the two of us we have something like 65 years of experience with audio. I find it absolutely hilarious when someone posts that a DAC sounds "much" better than another DAC. How is it that we can't hear the same thing, nor can ANY of our friends? We certainly hear a HUGE difference in speakers and amps and very audible ones with cables. But GOOD stand-alone DACs appear to be doing a very good job. MOST people simply list the one or two they've heard in stores as their favorites. If you're looking for a "safe bet" in a DAC you can go with ANY of the models I mentioned above or some of the other fine units out there. Unless someone has your exact system, in the same room and your precise tastes, try not to worry overmuch about DAC A blowing away DAC B. This was most apparent in trying out the EE Minimax Plus. He tried various tubes and it always sounded best in SS mode! And in that mode it sounded quite like all of the others and about as good as the much less expensive Centrance. So the point of this is to put your efforts and money into speakers and amp/pre. That's 95% of the type of sound you'll get. They determine the character of the system more than anything else. Cheers! Rob Robbob  (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread) 02-13-12

Responses (1-59 of 59)

Click title to read one, or click date to read all below it. 02-14-12   Thanks for your post. appreciate the perspective it lends. i ...   Foster_9 02-14-12   Congratulations! the secret is a secret no more. the vast ma ...   Elizabeth 02-14-12   thanks for the amusing post! first of all it depends on the ...   Audiooracle 02-14-12   This surprises me because we have to remember that a dac als ...   Hifiharv 02-14-12   I, too, thank you for your post. i have yet to accept the d ...   Gtortorella 02-14-12   Foster....here's another rub: the longer you live with a da ...   Robbob 02-14-12   Elizabeth.... the problem is that many people write such co ...   Robbob 02-14-12   Thank you rob for pulling back the curtain. i like my centr ...   Nonoise 02-14-12   My dac rules: 1) almost all dac's have to choose between a ...   Sibelius 02-14-12   I use the calyx dac having replaced the original ee minimax. ...   Meiwan 02-14-12   As have said in the past, the placebo effect is alive and we ...   Mrtennis 02-14-12   It seems to me having followed dac threads for a while and l ...   David12 02-14-12   true, obviously, to some extent. however, it should be kept ...   Almarg 02-14-12   To get to a certain level of resolution and quality i think ...   Wildoats 02-14-12   The only way to compare dacs accurately is using a really lo ...   Audioengr 02-14-12   So audioengr, other than the renowned mac mini, what are som ...   Foster_9 02-14-12   The founder of musical fidelity, which hawks the $300 giant- ...   Loomisjohnson 02-14-12   To the fellow who has the dealership....you're the first per ...   Robbob 02-14-12   "one more thing, regarding the minimax sounding better ...   Sibelius 02-14-12   From my years as a professional musician, i learned to never ...   Chayro 02-14-12   Chayro - excellent post. i'm not implying that you're imply ...   Kbarkamian 02-15-12: Robbob Chayro, I agree 100%. It's just that there are more ears than mine who listened to these DACs and no one heard a big difference. Over time the differences became smaller or at least seemed so. The associated gear is quite good. The listeners are experienced. We HEARD DIFFERENCES, but found them far from impressive and variable depending on recordings, which in turn made some of the differences a wash. It's also my belief that the average buyer chooses a DAC based on reviews and maybe comparison to 1 or 2 other units. Certainly we cannot evaluate the way we do with speakers. In spite of my carrying on about this, I also bought my Rega DAC with minimal comparison. I got a loaner from Signature sound and compared to a few units my friend had. That's not much of an evaluation against the 30 or more speakers I listened to before I bought Merlins. Show me the showroom that has 10 DACs set up for a clean head-to head comparison. Many don't have any. I don't doubt people's hearing, but I greatly doubt conclusions made from a very narrow range of listening experience. Hooking up a certain DAC with perhaps the best reviews going, we were sad to hear it was "about the same" as much less expensive DAC. Changing a powercord brought about more significant changes. My main point is that some sort of "scale" needs to be employed. When people claim the Bazooka 5000 DAC destroys the SuperNova 10 there needs to be a more accurate representation as to what the differences amount to musically. Rob Robbob  (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread) 02-15-12   Sibelius, sometimes tubes don't match tubes in other compone ...   Robbob 02-15-12   Robbob - i'm glad you took my post in the spirit it was inte ...   Chayro 02-15-12   Rob - agree with you. i was fully expecting to prefer tube m ...   Sibelius 02-15-12   "so audioengr, other than the renowned mac mini, what a ...   Audioengr 02-15-12   Loomis wrote: "about four to five percent of the cost ...   Audioengr 02-15-12   Very interesting, all. rob, i've been following your experi ...   Mezmo 02-15-12   More detail and resolution, does not intrinsically denote th ...   Mrtennis 02-15-12   Hi mezmo: do you exclude the possibility that a tube dac , ...   Mrtennis 02-15-12   "more detail and resolution, does not intrinsically den ...   Sibelius 02-15-12   Mr. t: absolutely not, wouldn't say that i'm in a position t ...   Mezmo 02-16-12   Well rob, again we have to disagree on this one. i am going ...   Tubegroover 02-16-12   More detail and resolution, does not intrinsically denote th ...   Robbob 02-16-12   Do you exclude the possibility that a tube dac , with a tube ...   Robbob 02-16-12   Audioengr, very interesting post with many valid points abou ...   Loomisjohnson 02-16-12   Well then i guess i'm going to have to try the rega just for ...   Tubegroover 02-16-12   My experience has also been that the impact of a tube in a c ...   Sibelius 02-16-12   Lots of interesting comments on this thread. i think there’s ...   Bryoncunningham 02-16-12   I don't see how one can generalize that tubes in dacs or cd ...   Mrtennis 02-16-12   The point i attemped to make, aside from subjective impressi ...   Tubegroover 02-16-12   Tubegroover.... actually, we agree! i agree there are diffe ...   Robbob 02-16-12   Nice post, bryon. i can't resist commenting, though, that ...   Learsfool 02-17-12   Well rob i certainly wouldn't disagree with your comment tha ...   Tubegroover 02-17-12   I am going to break down my own experience over the years in ...   Chesebert 02-17-12   Chesebert "to op, if all you do is dither around $1k ...   Jult52 02-17-12   I'm sorry...did someone just mention a dac costing 10k is ne ...   Robbob 02-18-12   Assuming you are not trolling. for someone who had spent few ...   Chesebert 02-18-12   Learsfool, i like what you said about "build quality.&q ...   Foster_9 02-18-12   If spending a lot on hifi seems stupid, you would be stupid ...   Chayro 02-18-12   20k should be a drop in he bucket for you - just think of it ...   Robbob 02-18-12   i introduced the distinction between "build quality&qu ...   Bryoncunningham 02-18-12   Just accept that others can hear things you can't and others ...   Robbob 02-19-12   Hi bryon - yes, we are basically in agreement. the whole bu ...   Learsfool 02-19-12   Rob, here's one reviewer's thoughts... i respect your concl ...   Douglas_schroeder 02-19-12   Hi doug: regarding changes to the opamps, what improvements ...   Mrtennis 02-19-12   Douglas, thanks for your comments. i've made my points based ...   Robbob 02-19-12   All it takes is an active preamp and an inferior sd/pdif cab ...   Audioengr 02-19-12   i think you're probably right about this, learsfool. and i ...   Bryoncunningham

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