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  Why do intelligent people deny audio differences?
In my years of audiophilia I have crossed swords with my brother many times regarding that which is real, and not real, in terms of differeces heard and imagined.
He holds a Masters Degree in Education, self taught himself regarding computers, enough to become the MIS Director for a school system, and early in life actually self taught himself to arrange music, from existing compositions, yet he denys that any differece exists in the 'sound' of cables--to clarify, he denies that anyone can hear a difference in an ABX comparison.
Recently I mentioned that I was considering buying a new Lexicon, when a friend told me about the Exemplar, a tube modified Dennon CD player of the highest repute, video wise, which is arguably one of the finest sounding players around.
When I told him of this, here was his response:
"Happily I have never heard a CD player with "grainy sound" and, you know me, I would never buy anything that I felt might be potentially degraded by or at least made unnecessarily complex and unreliable by adding tubes."

Here is the rub, when cd players frist came out, I owned a store, and was a vinyl devotee, as that's all there was, and he saw digital as the panacea for great change; "It is perfect, it's simply a perfect transfer, ones and zero's there is no margin for error," or words to that effect.
When I heard the first digital, I was appalled by its sterility and what "I" call 'grainy' sound. Think of the difference in cd now versus circa 1984. He, as you can read above resists the notion that this is a possibility.
We are at constant loggerheads as to what is real and imagined, regarding audio, with him on the 'if it hasn't been measured, there's no difference', side of the equation.
Of course I exaggerate, but just the other day he said, and this is virtually a quote, "Amplifiers above about a thousand dollars don't have ANY qualitative sound differences." Of course at the time I had Halcro sitting in my living room and was properly offended and indignant.
Sibling rivalry? That is the obvious here, but this really 'rubs my rhubarb', as Jack Nicholson said in Batman.
Unless I am delusional, there are gargantual differences, good and bad, in audio gear. Yet he steadfastly sticks to his 'touch it, taste it, feel it' dogma.
Am I losing it or is he just hard headed, (more than me)?
What, other than, "I only buy it for myself," is the answer to people like this? (OR maybe US, me and you other audio sickies out there who spend thousands on minute differences?
Let's hear both sides, and let the mud slinging begin!
Lrsky  (Threads | Answers | This Thread)

02-05-05
  Responses (1-50 of 173)
Click title to read one, or click date to read all below it.

02-05-05   To be the first to answer one's own post seems bizarre, but ...   Lrsky

02-05-05   God, i am doing it again. i went to the site in question, an ...   Lrsky

02-05-05   Sounds to me like your brother is trying to get in your head ...   Rsbeck

02-05-05   This question has two parts, in my opinion. the first part ...   Tvad

02-05-05   Has -he- ever done a double blind test? that might be a goo ...   Lousyreeds1

02-05-05   Rsbeck well said and my thoughts exactly. as larsky and i h ...   Czbbcl

02-05-05   Before i get blasted on this i'd like to clear the air with ...   Lugnut

02-05-05   The connection made between inteligence and subjective opini ...   Eldartford

02-05-05   Let me guess... he's the left brain, and you are the right b ...   Viggen

02-05-05   Your brother is exaggerating a bit for effect, but his gener ...   Pabelson

02-05-05   I agree that intelligence,per se, may not be the issue. ther ...   Lkdog

02-05-05   Just think how happy we would be if we thought an $89 cd pla ...   Rja

02-05-05   Good advice from several people on this thread. forget it! ...   84audio

02-05-05   I certainly recognize that intelligence insures nothing as i ...   Lrsky

02-05-05   Is this the only example of debate you have with your brothe ...   Timf

02-05-05   It has also been proven that people imagine differences that ...   Rsbeck

02-05-05   Great post! i love it. does your brother have anything to sa ...   Flemke

02-05-05   It reminds me of the old days, when kids would come into the ...   Twl

02-05-05   Highly educated neither infers common sense nor open-mindedn ...   Jafox

02-05-05   Lugnut nailed it. academia nervosa. my brother maintains an ...   Danlib1

02-05-05   Heh, yer brother is messin with you, there are definatly dif ...   Slappy

02-05-05   They can't hear the difference and aren't interested in tryi ...   Timrhu

02-05-05   It's funny, this thread conjured up memories of my old store ...   Lrsky

02-05-05   Btw thanks to lugnut, condescending is a correct descriptio ...   Lrsky

02-05-05   Your brother is lucky. regardless of the reality of any con ...   Holzhauer

02-06-05   I agree to the extent, holzhauer, only if you think that ign ...   Lrsky

02-06-05   By the way, how could someone who is as proud as you; enou ...   Lrsky

02-06-05   So, you think your brother is ignorant -- and condescending ...   Rsbeck

02-06-05   Rsbeck, you are being needlessly ugly here. the first things ...   Lrsky

02-06-05   Being without skepticism does not render one edison. that's ...   Rsbeck

02-06-05   If he's really a scientist/educated person, he'd get his ear ...   Viggen

02-06-05   I would caution that assuming that "because the human b ...   Twl

02-06-05   During the past several years, i've spent a large amount of ...   Timpani

02-06-05: Cwlondon
To further define and examine this debate, here is another dimension:

INSECURITY!!!!!!!

-- both that of the audiophile believers and their skeptics.

We like (and perhaps need) to justify the enormous effort and expense that can go into all this.

Non audiophiles dont like to feel INFERIOR while enjoying their Bose systems that they thought were high status, high performance products and we are quickly to dimiss as mass marketed garbage.

During my salad days as a bachelor in London, I used to enjoy having my suits and shoes all made by hand. Like audio, there are examples of huge hype and rip offs in this area, but there is also a secret world of expertise and suppliers known to enthusiasts.

Bespoke shoes are a particularly esoteric, laborious, and ridiculously expensive luxury. Anyone who knows the look and feel of bespoke shoes can spot a pair instantly, although they might go unnoticed by people not tuned into the differences.

Similar to well made audio, they might cost thousands of dollars, although will last 20 years if well maintained and can be "amortized" down to the price of more ordinary luxury items.

A friend of mine, who suffers from a similar arrogance to Lrskys brother, used to LOVE to try and taunt me that -- although he would spend thousands on suits, shirts and accessories -- that bespoke SHOES were a ridiculous waste of money and really not worth the difference.

He was a very competitive person, his insecurities would routinely lapse into arrogance, and he cant deal with the fact that HIS shoes might not be the most rarified and luxurious items and he COULDNT AFFORD $3-4000 for a pair of shoes.

This phenomenon seems to be exaggerated when people are smugly content in their own status because more reasonably priced products have been well marketed to their ego.

People who confidently stock their parties with Veuve Cliquot would be horrified to hear that its the SAME as much cheaper champagne served under a different label for 5 bucks a bottle.

I hope we are confident enough to say that maybe all of our hobby is not worth the extra expense, not as demonstrably fabulous as we think, and that we might certain fail double blind tests if forced to take them.

But I also hope we are investing in our own happiness -- even if placebo effect -- and for our own, private enjoyment.

Further to my comparison with clothes made in London, some tailors suggest that all pricey hand stitched monograms should be HIDDEN on the tail of shirts -- not on the chest or cuffs -- or on boxer shorts because they should all exist for the private pleasure of the wearer. Even better, white thread or white fabric?!? Only YOU know the ultimately discreet luxury of your clothes.

So here is a challenging existential question for audiophiles -- if you kept your system in a secret room and no one ever saw it but you, and you werent allowed to ever discuss it or disclose the price to anyone -- is there anything you would change about it?

Audio is particularly intimidating for some reason, perhaps because it is so expensive and not easily accessible to the laymen.

Meanwhile, most people have invested what they feel is a significant sum of money on "perfect sound forever".

I think this explains the biggest piece of the puzzle:

"Why do intelligent people deny audio differences?"

Long live audiophiles and Audiogon.

Best wishes to all of you.

Cwlondon  (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)


02-06-05   Great comments from cwlondon and timpani.   Onhwy61

02-06-05   I would have to agree whole heartedly with rsbeck. your brot ...   Sbachman

02-06-05   This is a funny thread, rsbeck don't mind lrsky's touchy fee ...   Cinematic_systems

02-06-05   I debated 'outing' a personal experience, ie my brother, unt ...   Lrsky

02-06-05   The above thread shows why market pickings for the latest, g ...   Donbellphd

02-06-05   Rsbek, you are right about the 'ignorance is bliss' comment ...   Lrsky

02-06-05   I don't know that this is an arguement worth persuing. if a ...   Nrchy

02-06-05   i guess you could say that's niiave i could...if only i cou ...   Rsbeck

02-06-05   Naive....sorry i have a new ergonomic keyboard, and am tryin ...   Lrsky

02-06-05   Lrsky: why not set up a demo that will prove your brother to ...   Sean

02-07-05   zip cord tends to roll-off the top end lol. if you call ro ...   Rsbeck

02-07-05   nordost lacks warmth and tends to accent the upper midrange ...   Rsbeck

02-07-05   If someone wants to prove he/she can hear the difference bet ...   Rsbeck

02-07-05   . crowd: burn her! burn! burn her!... bedevere: quiet! q ...   Rsbeck

02-07-05   The fact remains that high-end audio is not for the masses. ...   Tgun5

02-07-05   Rsbeck: we went through all of this garbage concerning louds ...   Sean


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