SuperCaps has a relatively new family of “Robert Hovland Edition” film caps that are highly affordable. They are handmade in the US, comprised of non-exotic materials, highly inspected during build and sealed tightly. I got some samples from Bob to try in my tube-output DACs and the results exceeded my expectations by a wide margin. Cool. Very interested to hear what you think about these. I've got Hovlands in my Egglestons so am curious. |
Absolutely incredible post, Phil. Thanks so much for taking the time to plot out your thoughts.
Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts in terms of Druid V vs Def 2 speakers?
I'm particularly curious about the presentation differences of the two. I hear the merits of my nanotech drivers vs the original def 2 drivers (pointy phase cone) in terms of speed, transparancy, resolution and shove, but at the same time I've lately rolled back in the old drivers and enjoyed what I perceive as a warmer, fuller presentation that is more relaxed at the expense of some of the adjectives noted above, but still quite musical.
Does the cabinet, cabling and full greiew implementation of the Druid V lend any additional warmth to the presentation while retaining those other virtues.
Looking at your checklist:
1. I use my stereo for music and theater
2. I love a good foundation, but if the room is adequately loaded and bass is textured and impactful, its not my top priority for an emotionally engaging listen.
3. Melody AN211 16 watts of 211 SET power (into 8 ohms)
4. With the Defs a foot away from the wall I get about 10 feet distance between me and the speakers, presumably the Druids would need to be moved forward of the wall
5. Slight warmth, texture, emotion, microdynamics, impact, stage size.
My system sounds good right now, but I can't help shake the suspicion that I had a greater emotional connection to my Superflys, Shindo Aurgies-L & Shuguang S845 MK monos. I'm wondering if its a product of the one vs. two FRDs. |
>>Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts in terms of Druid V vs Def 2 speakers?<<
It's the same set of trade-offs as with Def3, minus the extra resolution of the Def3 Nano drivers. And by the way, the same decision dilemma applies further down the Zu price range between Superfly and Omen Def. Druid V can't match the soundstage scale of the Definition 2-FRD architecture, so if you're totally hooked on that then the greater focus of a Druid won't persuade you to switch. Druid is going to peter out on the low end around 35Hz, maybe a little lower if you bias the floor-plinth gap toward extension rather than bass definition.
However, Gopher, you've volunteered some revealing observations that complicate your decision. I think it is unusual to prefer the older Zu FRD (conical phase plug) over the newer Nano FRD, but not inexplicable. This kind of preference for an arrested state of a component's evolution has been going on forever. Back when the earth was still cooling, there were people who stayed loyal to the AR 3, insisting that the AR 3a was a step too far. Today, there are owners of Sonus Faber Cremona who have no interest in the Cremona M. I still suspect you have to be quite patient with further break-in of the Nano FRD since you are limited to how hard you can drive them, but it is true that the older FRD does give Definition 2 what you describe as a "warmer, fuller presentation" without the greater speed, burstiness and dynamics of the same cabinet running Nano FRDs. And by the way, if that truly reflects your preferences, then the right FRD to settle on may be the 2010 High Output driver from Zu. Only the last few pair of Def2s were shipped with the HO driver, but its sound in the Def2 cabinet slots neatly between the older, warmer cone-phase-plug FRD and the current, exciting Nano.
Where Def3 further improves over Def2 the focus and warmth of the Definition form factor with Nano drivers is in the Speakon connector integrated in the Def4 sub-bass amplification module, for full B3 cable geometry. You don't get this on Def2. Still, if you use Zu speaker cables, if you want warmth rather than transparency, use Zu Mission instead of Event.
>>Does the cabinet, cabling and full Griewe implementation of the Druid V lend any additional warmth to the presentation while retaining those other virtues.<<
Druid in version V is finally not an obviously "warm" speaker, instead having most of Def4's linearity. But it still has a touch of greater warmth than the more coldly-objective Definition, and of course the Radian supertweeter allows the top end to be very much smoother, more refined and beautiful on the top end than older Defintions. The new Druid cabinet is very quiet, and of course unlike Definition it isn't a sealed box so it is less energized by the drivers anyway. The Def4-like aluminum plinth mechanically grounds Druid more firmly than prior Druids, even my original ones that had the aluminum slab plinth (before Zu shifted to MDF there). So, overall, yes Druid V will project a little more intrinsic tonal warmth than Definitions with Nano drivers, further reinforced by the Griewe acoustic impedance governed bass, which is not present in Def2. The Druid V bass is far better than prior Druids, with plenty of texture and character -- very natural within its lower limit.
>>5. Slight warmth, texture, emotion, microdynamics, impact, stage size.<<
Druid V vs. Def2 forces real choices. A preference for slight warmth, texture and emotion argues for Druid V. Placing value on microdynamics, impact and stage size argues for Definitions. So does doing double duty in HT2.0 as well as 2ch music. If I recall correctly, your room proportions are relatively oblong with your speakers placed on the narrow wall. That suggests you can sacrifice some image scale, especially width if you want to shift toward more focus and sheer tone. One thing to keep in mind is that the Druid is a 16 ohms speaker. I don't recall whether your AN211 has 16 ohm taps. It's not a serious mismatch to run a 16 ohms speaker on 8 ohms taps but the power output will be somewhat reduced, which may not matter in your case.
>>My system sounds good right now, but I can't help shake the suspicion that I had a greater emotional connection to my Superflys...<<
On some music, Druid V leaves you believing it's the greatest speaker ever made. Definition is the higher resolution, more dynamic speaker but Druid's focus and tonal intimacy has the ability to mesmerize a listener with music that capitalizes on Druid V's strengths. The singular case where I've found a speaker with ganged drivers to fully equal the intimacy and emotional engagement of same-line speaker with one driver of the same composition, is in the case of Zu Dominance. Dominance fully resolves the dichotomy of Definition resolution & scale, with Druid/Superfly focus & engagement. You get both in one much larger, heavier, more expensive speaker. Short of Dominance, this choice between focus and scale forced by similarly-priced Zu single-FRD and double-FRD speakers will continue.
>>4. With the Defs a foot away from the wall I get about 10 feet distance between me and the speakers, presumably the Druids would need to be moved forward of the wall<<
Druid V will likely sound fine in the same locations as your Def2s are currently. Toe-in may be different.
Without actually hearing your system in your room and watching how you react to a variety of music, I can't give you a more definitive answer for whether you will be happier with Def2 or Druid V. If you are up for the experiment, you might consider having Sean ship you a set of 2010 HO drivers *if he still has any*, to try. And install a Clarity cap on your Def2 supertweeter network. Then settle on the FRD that best floats you. Then if you're still missing Superfly, get Druid V. The whole question really rests on how much you truly value Definition's spatial and dynamic scale, once you don't have those attributes. Most people who have been to my house to listen to both Druids and Definitions -- any version of each -- are intrigued by Druids but decide on whatever level of Definition they can afford, from used Def2s to new Def4s. It's always the scale that grabs them. Just two chose Soul Superfly and Druid V over some form of Def, and for the right reasons for them. You have to be quite self-aware to make a lasting choice.
Phil |
Phil,
I appreciate your time and effort.
Srajan Ebaen reviewed the Druid V and felt it wakes up with 50-100 watt amps.This seems strange for 101db-16 ohm speakers(should be very easy to drive it would seem).He says they sound bettet with transistor rather than SET tubes.Did you find the Druid(specifically) better with the S.I.T. amp as he does? Different listening priorities result in variety of conclusions, valid due to the nature of subjectivity. |
>>Srajan Ebaen reviewed the Druid V and felt it wakes up with 50-100 watt amps.<<
Sometimes Srajan gets it radically wrong. I do agree that Zu speakers in general are not best served by flea power SET. At least 15w seems generally right. I use 24w SET, 845 on my Def4s and 24w 300B PSET on my Druid Vs. The problem with 50 - 100w amps is that you are mostly forced into either solid state, or push-pull KT88 or KT120 tube amps. No thanks. On the other hand, one of the ironies of amplification of Zu speakers is that the McIntosh MC1.2kw or older MC1201 1200w monoblocks sound beautiful on them -- much better than the lower power, cheaper Mac quad-diff amps. And much better than almost any 50w - 100w amp, SS or push-pull tube. Of course, that's $20K worth of amplifiers. A PSET 845 of, say, 50 - 70w could be awesome, however. I'll agree with the 50-100w recommendation *if*, say, the sound of my 24w monoblocks can be scaled up without compromise. So far, it doesn't work that way.
>>He says they sound better with transistor rather than SET tubes.<<
Srajan is ten years older than when I first started reading him. Maybe that's the reason he thinks this. That's a joke. Sort of. Let's just say, I don't agree. I'll go further: Balderdash!
>>Did you find the Druid (specifically) better with the S.I.T. amp as he does?<<
Nope. Nor Def4. SIT-2 is inoffensive but really not interesting nor engaging. SIT-1 monoblocks, with the bias run a little on the hot side, deliver the best music sound I've ever heard from transistors, but even if someone *gave* me a pair gratis, my Audion SET amps would stay. More to the point, until Nelson gives us parallel-single-ended SIT monoblocks for more power from that device, the dynamic ceiling of SITs at 10w is just too low. It's irreconcilable to at once contend that Druid V needs 50 - 100 watts to "wake up," while also advocating the 10w SIT amp for them. Which is it?
>>Different listening priorities result in variety of conclusions, valid due to the nature of subjectivity.<<
This is a pretty standard dismissal of strong opinions in audiophilia. It allows for preference, but it is a sentiment that also excuses a lot of wrongs in music reproduction. Except for the SIT-1's exemplary deep bass character (plus it is a quiet amp), I can't think of *any*thing it does as well as fast, transparent implementation of SET on Zu. And I know of no 50-100w amp that equals or betters the right few 15 - 30w amps on Zu. But then, I say this as someone who also advises that in any given category there are only a small handful of product offerings worth buying.
Phil |
Phil,as you know I ordered my Defs about three weeks ago, and before they have arrived I feel I am behind the eight ball. Quite Frankly I will never have a chance to A/B them so which one do I go with. You know my rig. |
Warrenh, please don't worry. You are NOT going to be disappointed with your Def4s, even if you haven't made a comparison to the Druid Vs. The lowest octave that the 4s provide should be decisive over the Vs, and I'm not convinced that Druid V plus a Submission sub will quite have the performance envelope of the Def4s.
IMHO, even deep bass conveys a stereo signal, so one sub obviously can't achieve this; and having a separate sub presents the problems of placement, whereas the integrated sub bass in the Def4s is taken care of. Druid V plus two Submissions would obviously take care of the stereo bass presentation, but placement issues would be even more complex in presenting a seamless soundstage, and cost would exceed the 4s alone.
So, Def4s have the edge I believe. |
Warren,
You ordered Def4. It's the one. For anyone who can afford Def4, there's no debate, especially if you've already lived with Definitions for years. If you ever build a second system, you can build it around Druid V. But at your price, performance level, music habits and the room you have, Def4 is the ticket. Stop, cease, terminate any second-guessing. You're going to be ecstatic.
Phil |
Phil, according to my UK Zu dealer, the cap upgrade change to the Def4s is between ClarityCap and Duelund VSF Black Cu. I believe Charles1dad has upgraded his (non Zu) spkr caps to the Duelund CAST Cu, but Sean of Zu has no experience of these.
When I spoke to Sean he summarised, a little confusingly, the differences as: stock Mundorf - good all rounder; ClarityCap - best if predominant listening is to energetic, distortion laden music (blues, metal, Hendrix, punk etc); Duelund VSF Black Cu - better for wider variety of music esp. if well recorded (classical, jazz, classic rock etc.).
So what if one has a real variety of music from edgy, maybe poorly recorded lps with plenty of fuzziness in the higher registers, esp. "hot mastered" brickwalled modern recordings (Metallica's 'Death magnetic', or Rush 'Vapor Trails', anyone?), to those that sound really even and smooth into the treble (Steely Dan 'Aja', anyone?).
It's enough that lots of analogue addicts change their carts based on the lps they're listening to! And I have a real issue with setups at shows that always play audiophile recordings with an inordinate amount of smoothness into the higher frequencies. I would hate to swap out what is evidently a good all rounder to replace with something much more program dependent.
Any thoughts on this? And is your Duelund experiment going to stretch to the CAST Cu, or the Sean-recommended VSF Black? |
Spirit, you took the words right out my mouth, but better. For me, as well as your above list of music: Acoustic jazz. It appears that I have a high class problem/decision I have to make. |
Spirit,
I believe either the Clarity or Duelund would work very well compared to the stock capacitor. 99% of the music I listen to is non audiophile fare(commercial labels big and small).The Duelund is a universal upgrade regardless of music genre.I have`nt heard the Clarity MR but it should also be a fine choice(based on word of mouth).The Duelund is`nt"too smooth" or embellished. It`s just pure,honest and natural,there`s nothing artificial about it in my use.
Regards, |
Thanks, Charles, your comments on the Duelund fills me with confidence ahead of the big installation. I don't think I have one audiophile grade album in my collection, but a real spectrum from awful to pretty impressive. If the Duelund is essentially neutral, just allowing more transparency into the treble I can't imagine it would do anything but enhance difficult recordings. Phil's experiences will of course be eagerly followed. |
Although I have not heard the Druid V (maybe one day I will get the opportunity, but I am not holding my breath), I echo almost everything that Phil has said about the Def 4s. Having lived with mine for almost 1.5 years and driving them with a 300b SET (using Takatsuki TA-300b tubes), the Def 4s are remarkable. And when you consider that they occupy only one square foot of floor space each and are very flexible in terms of placement (mine are within inches of the back wall), they are a scary accomplishment. I appreciate the discussion about different capacitors, but at this point I am merely curious and not compelled. . . that is how good the Def 4s are. The only thing that I would add is that break-in takes time, that the Def 4s continue to evolve, and that I find this evolution to be a surprisingly gratifying experience; but it is good that Zu has extended the factory break-in to 600 hours for those who are more impatient. |
A 50wpc transistor amp will deliver 25 watts or less into the 16-ohm Druid V. That's far from irrational. And I didn't claim that's what it took to 'wake them up'. What I did say is that particularly the low end gets wirier. Someone listening to a lot of power Rock for example might really enjoy what the added power does if no subwoofer is run.
Because the Druid V's presence region is darker and less lucid than say a 4.5" Fostex widebander run as a dedicated midrange (with a Raal ribbon brought in around 2kHz), I prefer the added lucidity and speed of a transistor amp like the SIT-1 fronted by a high-quality valve pre. Since I don't listen terribly loud, the SIT-1 produces sufficient power for my needs but might not for someone else. A 300B or 845 amp for my tastes would be a bit too dark and chewy in that critical presence region. A 45 or 50 DHT would be bitching but likely be a bit underpowered (unless it was multi-paralleled which tends to lose something in the bargain).
But all this is simply a function of personal tastes. What I think becomes a bit counterproductive is making judgmental narrow-minded statement that border on gonzo jingoism.
Consider this quote from 213 cobra: "No Magico at any price can deliver Druid’s pure unity of behaviors regardless of what you try to drive them with, and no Magico is as musically satisfying with such a wide range of amplifiers. Druid V laughs at the cacophonous disunity of a Wilson speaker. Druid V ridicules the dynamic choke points imposed on Focal speakers at the crossover points. In the same way that no one appreciative of the unity of the Quad ESL heard any musical value from the Infinity IRS or a Duntech Sovereign back in the day, a Druid V owner today can pretty much ignore the rest of the alleged “high-end” speaker market inflicting damage upon our hearing, with the exception of other Zu speakers."
I'm sorry but that color commentary isn't ideal to promote a particular sound one fancies while, by direct implication, calling anyone who disagrees deaf, moronic, misguided etc. That's the real balderdash -:) |
Phil, thank you for a informative well thought out response.
I'm curious how a Berning ZH230 amp would sound with the DruidV?
I would love to get the Def.4's ,but my room is to small. The DruidV would fit my room much better and maybe get the Zu sub later on.
Joe |
>>I would hate to swap out what is evidently a good all rounder to replace with something much more program dependent. Any thoughts on this? And is your Duelund experiment going to stretch to the CAST Cu, or the Sean-recommended VSF Black?<<
As I wrote earlier, on the Radian 850, none of the caps I discussed sound less than excellent. There is nothing wrong with the Mundorf silver-in-oil. Sean Casey was in Los Angeles delivering a pair of Def3s to a customer when he stopped by to see me and we spent the better part of a day noodling with cap changes and listening to a wide variety of music, while discussing the results. I ordered some Duelund caps from him but they got diverted to another, noisier, customer so I didn't have a chance to listen to them at that time.
In listening to the three caps we had on hand that day -- Mundorf silver-in-oil, V-Cap CuTF, Clarity MR -- none of them had advantages restricted to any type or genre of music. Clarity is of these three most forgiving of poor recordings. They are all applicable as "all-arounders." The Mundorf is really very transparent and it can slightly accentuate roughness in a voice that's close-mic'd, or in a brass instrument, for example. Whether that's accurate or not depends on how much you know about the recording and the performer. On Leonard Choen's "Old Ideas" for instance, with the Mundorf and V-Cap the rasp in Leonard Cohen's voice is accentuated compared to the Clarity MR, where it's fully present but a little polished and recessed. To Sean Casey, the Clarity's rendition sounds more "right." I'm still evaluating but I'm leaning to the V-Cap's voicing being more natural, even if the Clarity's is subjectively more agreeable to the ear.
To most people these cap differences will seem quite subtle. We who really make something of them are hard core; admit it.
I'll also repeat: no matter what anyone says, none of these caps are completely neutral. Caps are invariably a choice in voicing, as much fixed parametric tone and voicing controls as are cables. I think there is a generally-agreeable hierarchy, and for Sean it's Mundorf SIO on bottom and Duelund on top, with Clarity, V-Cap and Audyn offering specific performance-per-dollar increments in between. Keep this up and we'll need next versions of our speakers to have some kind of quick change arrangement for the high-pass network caps!
I don't hear anything in ClarityMR that I consider "program dependent." If you listen to music with a lot of intentional distortion, Clarity will recess some of the sawtooth nature of it while keeping it present, whereas V-Cap will do nothing to polish it and will put just a touch of spotlight on it. Clarity gives a little more harmonic grace and beauty up top; V-Cap a little less so but in exchaange you get more snap. Mundorf is more like V-Cap in this respect, with the added difference that it sounds more "excitable" as SPLs rise. Comparatively, the Mundorf shows less grace with rising complexity and volume. While the Radian 850 reveals with finer nuance the differences between caps, than the older Zu supertweeter, the benefit of Clarity over Mundorf is much more material to the older Zu supertweeter in Def2 & 3. In Def4 and Druid5, the upgrade is a choice. In Def2 & 3, it sounds essential to me.
I won't blindly comment on Duelund in Zu until I try them. I've heard Duelunds in other speakers' crossovers and they were upgrades but also diluted by the nature of a multi-drivers/multi-way speaker. They are expensive and the company is erratic on delivery, since it is essentially a craft shop. Doing these cap comparisons in Definitions and Druids is highly inconvenient, so maybe I'll just go straight to trying CAST when I have (or take) the time. But Sean's take is that Clarity improves his speaker in the same direction that Duelund does, just not quite as far. If that is true and you want to upgrade for less than the cost of Duelund, then my recommendation is to go with Clarity if you (slightly) value smoothness over texture, and to go with V-Cap CuTF or TFTF if you (slightly) value texture over smoothness. If that's too difficult a choice to resolve then forget about all this and stick with your stock cap. It's just fine.
Phil |
Spirit,
We all as individuals hear differently so Phil may have the same or alternative conclusion with these cap choices.Your impression could of course vary.I look forward to reading your experiences once you've gain some listening time.My suspicion is you'll be quite happy.
Regards, |
Hi Gary,
You seem to be very satisfied with your Ancient Audio 300b amp and DEF 4 combination. Have you been tempted to try the First Watt S.I.T. amplifiers that 6 Moons has raved about?
Regards, |
>>I'm curious how a Berning ZH230 amp would sound with the DruidV?<<
The Berning should sound fast, transparent and controlled on Druid V. I beleive the ZH230-12 Class A monoblocks will sound even better, and more sublime. That amp maintains its power into 16 ohms. It doubles 8 ohm distortion performance into 4 ohms, so with Druid you are off the impedance centerpoint in the right direction. The high damping factor (for a tube amp) should complement the very good bass control already imposed by Druid V's full Griewe implementation, for which the acoustic impedance can be adjusted at the floor gap. The high damping factor in the amp should let you adjust the floor gap a little high, to optimize for bass extension from the Druid, while sharply limiting the added bloat that would normally accompany that tuning.
Phil |
Charles1Dad-
I can comment on the SIT-1s, as I had them in my house recently. I've also had the 2 in my rig a year ago. The SIT-1 soundstage and do bass better than the 2, as they should being a monoblock design. 213Cobra and I disagree on the amount of the improvement however. Tonality-wise, you can make them a little warmer with the bias, but I wasn't offended by the bias in the middle. And the bias the other way wasn't really listenable.
My issue with both SIT amplifiers is that particularly on vocals- leading edge into SET-like bloom, but then SS decay (or lack thereof). It just doesn't sound right to me. I'd rather just have my McIntosh amps back (or Valvets that I will likely try in the future) that may not have the SET bloom, but sound more consistent (and give amazing headroom that the 1s don't quite provide). It's hard to put this into words, so I apologize in advance. That tonality is the same on either stereo or mono version, so to me the monoblocks really aren't worth an upgrade.
There is one caveat- I was not using a DHT preamplifier, which according to others is the missing link. |
Hi Gary,
You seem to be very satisfied with your Ancient Audio 300b amp and DEF 4 combination. Have you been tempted to try the First Watt S.I.T. amplifiers that 6 Moons has raved about?
Regards,
Not in the least - especially with the Takatsuki TA-300b. (I know. I sound like a broken record.) Plus, the Ancient Audio electronics are gorgeous. |
thanks Phil and Spirit. I feel much better. Christian gave me the scoop: shipping around the 22nd. Crazy 'bout my Def 1.5s for the past 6+ years and now the IVs? Don't get better than this! |
Warrenh, good that you're more relaxed. Cap upgrade, or no, you'll be amazed by the 4s. They take EVERYTHING good about the 2s, and just enhance the whole listening experience. A big part of my system has changed with new tt/arm, modded Zu 103 cart, balanced power and top class vibration control, so I can't categorically say what's made the most difference into maximising neutral, transparent and involving in my reconfigured system, but the 4s are as clear a window to fully demonstrate the changes upstream.
I'm with Srajan into the benefits of running a tube pre and SS power, my Hovland amps really sounding sweet and precise in equal proportion thru the 4s.
Just a note to Phil. You were kind enough to comment on my Straingauge/Zu 103 comparison thread some while ago, and showed some skepticism that the Paratrace stylus and White Sapphire cantilever upgrades to my Zu 103 by ESCCo in the UK would be beneficial. All I can say is that it's an absolutely amazing upgrade for the money (£280/$500). ALL the fantastic tonality of the stock Zu 103 is retained with a leap forward in detail retrieval, soundstaging and neutrality/transparency. Most vitally, a slight stridency in upper frequencies is replaced by a mild hint of smoothness which really allows extra levels of info to be revealed. This is not at all at the expense of excitement or involvement, it's an even more addictive cart than before. If you have a spare Zu 103, I really urge you to consider the mods.
I've been running a thread under the title 'ESCO stylus/cantilever upgrades to Zu 103 cart' on the analogue forum section, which lists my experiences further. |
Keithr,
Thanks for your opinion of the S.I.T. amps, nothing beats a listen in your
own system.I expect impressions of these amplifiers to differ among
various listeners. No amp is flawless so choice is simply a matter of
personal priorities and tradeoffs. Keithr what you describe is what my gut
told me might be the sonic compromise. Shorten decay is a major minus
for me although the S.I.T. obviously has strengths and excells in other
areas. My 300b is' nt faultless but what it does right are the musical
attributes that are most vital for my long term enjoyment.I've yet to hear a
SS amplifier match the profound tactile presence and believability of a well
implemented SET(all SET amps are'nt created equally).
Gary, thanks for your reply as I understand where you're coming from.If I
were to venture towards solid state the S.I.T. would be a must audition.
Regards, |
Curious, (not a factor anymore)but can a layman install the Caps (Def4) we're talking about? Maybe I'm missing it, but (Sean) you were able to hook up the Caps in your crib? This sounds like a problematic undertaking for the novice unless a schematic is available. Shipping the Defs back inorder to do a Cap transplant does not register given shipping costs. Would you please explain what is involved? Curious minds (well mine, at the least) want to know? Enough questions for you? |
>>I'm sorry but that color commentary isn't ideal to promote a particular sound one fancies while, by direct implication, calling anyone who disagrees deaf, moronic, misguided etc. That's the real balderdash -:)<<
Don't read too much into it, Srajan. I wasn't "promoting" a sound, I was describing it. I'll add something I wrote in a private exchange with someone else earlier today: While no Magico (or Wilson, Focal, Vandersteen or whatever mainstream high-end, crossover-intensive speaker you want to name) can match Druid V's unity of behaviors, *whether any particular listener thinks that makes it a better speaker is another matter entirely.* A Magico anything cannot, does not, will not deliver the Zu FRD's coherence. That's true. But whether someone else hears that, or values that highly if they do, I can't predict. I didn't say nor imply that someone who likes Magico speakers is "deaf, moronic, misquided." I instead described a quality that Druid has which they don't, and which I obviously both by direct statement and implication assign priority to. I certainly understand why someone might like a Magico speaker. After all, as crossover-intensive, multi-drivers speakers go, it's (especially Q models) competent. I'm just not going to be one to recommend them.
>>A 50wpc transistor amp will deliver 25 watts or less into the 16-ohm Druid V. That's far from irrational. And I didn't claim that's what it took to 'wake them up'. What I did say is that particularly the low end gets wirier. Someone listening to a lot of power Rock for example might really enjoy what the added power does if no subwoofer is run.<<
No argument there. I was answering another poster's question about whether I agree Druid V needs a 50-100w amp. If he misstated your sentiment, thanks for correcting that.
>>A 300B or 845 amp for my tastes would be a bit too dark and chewy in that critical presence region.<<
True for many but you just have to choose the right 300B or 845 amp, and then choose the right tubes, to avoid that "chewiness." I agree with you on the 45/50 DHT amps. Illuminating but too weak.
>>Because the Druid V's presence region is darker and less lucid than say a 4.5" Fostex widebander run as a dedicated midrange (with a Raal ribbon brought in around 2kHz)<<
You lose me when you would rather have a bit more lucidity even though a crossover point of 2K is along for the ride, handing off to a ribbon driver no less. But maybe it works for you.
>>But all this is simply a function of personal tastes. What I think becomes a bit counterproductive is making judgmental narrow-minded statement that border on gonzo jingoism.<<
Gonzo, maybe. Jingoistic, no. Categoric, sure. I think the entire crossover-intensive, multi-drivers speaker world is off track and it happens that Zu has done the best job of making it possible to leave that behind. There are others who offer good alternatives, often with either usability restrictions Zu solved, or demanding greater domestic intrusion and accommodation, which Zu has largely avoided. This is a forum, not a journalistic vehicle. This is also a Zu thread, so while some people might be on the outside looking in, most participants are looking for clear answers when they ask questions of one another. I try not to disappoint! Most of what is claimed to be "high-end" gear in audio disappoints me and I do consider the vast majority of product designers misguided, before any consumer wears that label. I've plainly written here for years that I will only ever recommend a very short list of gear, for anyone who asks me, because over the 43 years I've been spending my own money in this market, it has proven ever true that only a few bits of gear in combination produce an exceptional semblance of musical realism. As an observer, I am however interested in and fascinated by the huge variety of approaches and innovations people try to attain the same end, and am equally fascinated by the many rationalizations for where they end up. I'm also impressed by the build quality of some musically questionable gear as well as the disregard for build quality in some gear that sounds quite good. But when it comes to actually helping someone understand what's truly worthwhile musically, I make my judgments and say what I think. From there, what others do is up to them. It's not personal. But you know as well as me, by the way you choose to write in 6Moons: It's better to be vivid and leave people knowing, than to be bland and leave people wondering.
It happens that I agree with most of your assessments of hifi gear, and still find your descriptions useful when I don't. You also recognize the value of what Zu brings to our market so we're more aligned than apart.
Phil |
>>Curious, (not a factor anymore)but can a layman install the Caps (Def4) we're talking about?<<
Yes, but it's a PITA. You have to lay the speakers down; drivers have to be removed; you have some three-hands maneuvering. Better to just order the upgrade with the build and be done with it. I believe Clarity is the new stock cap as of last month, so your speakers are going to be fine. If you want to pop for Duelund, amend your order now.
Phil |
>>Most vitally, a slight stridency in upper frequencies is replaced by a mild hint of smoothness which really allows extra levels of info to be revealed. This is not at all at the expense of excitement or involvement, it's an even more addictive cart than before. If you have a spare Zu 103, I really urge you to consider the mods.<<
Spirit,
My skepticism about this remains, in part because you refer to your stock Zu103 having had stridency in the upper frequencies. If you had stidency in a Zu103, something was amiss, and it could have been any of several things. So your post-surgery comparison to the stock baseline is hard to reconcile.
Now, I have no doubt that with a sapphire cantilever and Paratrace stylus you are gaining resolution of all kinds over the stock 103, and that may have been exactly what you were looking for. But substituting sapphire where there was aluminum, and a Paratrace profile where there was conical, will revoice a cartridge. It's unavoidable. I don't doubt you like your result, however. I might even prefer it! But it's going to be different and if that's the case, I then wonder whether I'd be better off going for a 47 Labs MC Bee. That's what I have to think about, since the Zu103 is what it is, intentionally.
However, by all accounts, ESCO is highly competent so like Soundsmith I highly regard their work and they offer sensible modernizations that can turn out well, as yours has for you.
Phil |
Warrenh, from what I gather it may not be for the total layman. The two FRDs and tweeter lens have to be carefully loosened, and apparently at this point it can be quite easy to drop the tweeter body since it weighs c.15lb!
Once disengaged, the old network is detached and the new installed. Apparently there isn't any welding, and then the whole shebang is fastened back in position.
The network is not just a cap, but also a couple of resistors at least. I'll be getting Simon the UK dealer to perform the tricky surgery, it's a a couple of hours' work, apparently.
I'm not too sure of these details, but I think they're correct. Get some help! |
Capacitor swapping complexity is speaker dependent.In my speaker there`s only one cap(tweeter) in the minimalist crossover and no resistor. the job took about 25 minutes.The entire crossover consists of one core inductor and the single capacitor.The Zu seems a simple set up also.
Regards, |
btw, here is the impedance plot for the Druid V:
www.6moons.com/audioreviews/zu20/plot1_big.png
As you'll see, the impedance swing magnitude below 150Hz is in excess of 30 ohms (from about 15 to 50) quite similar to the typical saddle response for a ported alignment. This suggests (and listening with the 8wpc Yamamoto 300B SET bore this out) that a low-power low-current zero NFB SET might not be ideal to get the best of Druid V's bass. Even a 4wpc 2A3 SET should produce sufficient output for most but going loud enough and exhibiting good control aren't synonymous... |
Srajan,
As you have pointed out, we all have our individual taste and prefer different components as a result. I think I understand where phil(213 cobra) is coming from in this regard. There seem to be two 'broad' camps of speakers, those seeking ultra resolution-detail and are the current High End direction(it seems).Magico,YG Audio,Wilson, etc.
Then there are the what I call the natural-holistic approach to speakers, Ocellia,Horning,Tonian Labs,Zu etc. These examples attract very different listeners with little if any overlap to the other camp. The resulting sound character is vastly different between these types. So I can see where one makes a clear decision as to which direction of speaker they`ll gravitate toward.These speaker choices will by default dictate power amplifier preferences also.
Regards, |
Charles, I'm going to go one stage further. We're apparently all agreed that a major aim of the high end is to get as close as possible to the fidelity of live music.
One thing I don't hear in live music is a delineation between low, mid and high frequencies: live music comes at you mainly as a wall of midrange, with lightning fast spikes into treble territory, and totally agile underpinning by bass frequencies with no overhang (I'm talking mainly about acoustic instruments here). The last thing listeners do when hearing live is go "what wonderful treble" or "how impressive is that bass", in effect it's a wall of mids (human voice range), topped and tailed, and fully integrated with, razor sharp transients into high and low frequencies.
And this in effect is what I believe Zu get closer to more than most: fantastic fidelity thru tone in that human voice range in the mids, with quite brilliant augmentation higher up with the aid of the Radian 850, and lower down with the sub bass.
So while Wilson, Magico, YG owners coo endlessly over their presentation being spotlit into frequency bands, those like us in the Zu camp really get the overall fidelity of music in a much more organic form. |
You don't see the judgment and sectarianism in statements like "those like us in the Zu camp really get the overall fidelity of music in a much more organic form... than the Wilson, Magico, YG owners (who are) into spot-lit frequency bands..."?
Like anyone else I have personal preferences. Yet if I phrased them as judgments (if you agree with me you're into the right and important elements of hifi, if you don't you're pursuing irrelevant artefacts), I'd be doing a disservice to the hobby.
And of course that too is just an opinion and you're welcome to disagree -:) |
Spirit,
Your description of live acoustic music is what I experience when I visit the jazz clubs where I live.I respect that different people hear or want what they feel is the right sound and go after it. At CES this year you could walk into a room and immediately hear the 'very' different appoaches to presenting music.The very detailed analytical systems just did`nt sound real to me.There`s no sense of humans playing actual instruments in real space. It all sounds artificial and sterile(lifeless). There were on the other hand rooms that were exceptionally organic and emotionally expressive.so natural and inviting.But to each their own, certainly there are those who would`nt care for my type of music presentation either.
Regards, |
If I never hear another Wilson/Krell demo where I'm 'taught' what to hear in the spectrum band, I'll die a happy man.
I've always been amazed by the number of poor show reports given to Zu spkrs over the years. It seems the majority of reviewers crave the 'spotlit frequencies' kind of sound that Wison et al provide. |
Charles1dad,
Re: Srajan and the speakers divide -- exactly. It's not perjorative to point out what the crossover-intensive/multi-drivers speakers cannot do that Druid V does, but it is a clear choice and the migration path tends to be from the mainstream to the alternative, rather than the reverse.
Phil |
I had been waiting for someone highly knoweledgeable about Zu to 'do this to me'. What did he do? I have been waiting for a comparison of Zu products so that I would be sure I 'needed' the Druid MK V. Now I am sure....
Thanks Phil:) |
I honestly don`t see where phil`s admiration and enthusiasm for the Zu line and concept is any more(or less) over the top than Srajan`s relatively recent embrace of low power transistor amps over SET tubes. Both have 'clearly' expressed a choice and do a good job explaining why.Others are free to make up their own minds(and have).Srajan, I enjoy reading your reviews and 6 Moons in general. I discovered my Yamamoto DAC,Takatsuki tubes and Ocellia cable loom as a result, thanks.
Phil,any revised thoughts on the SIT-1 amplifiers with further listening?
Regards,. |
Hi Srajan,
I am awaiting your comparison of the Essence, which I have had for 3 months, and the Druid Mk V. Based on Phil's take on things I have enough push to put in my order tonight. I am 54 and time is a wasting for what I find as the best, and least expensive loudspeaker, I have purchased in my 3 years in this game.
My ultra expensive journey may be then over.....with the Audio God's blessing.....and Phil's assessment of the Caps that I am ordering. It is all on your shoulder's Phil;)
Dale |
I believe that I own the second pair of Druid V that were produced. I picked them up at Zu's facility in Ogden, Utah at the end of last September. They are wonderful speakers and continue to improve, and I am told this improvement can go on for a year.
Another aspect of the Druid not mentioned is that they are a beautiful speaker. Their shape is what you could accurately describe as iconic. Mine are high gloss Ferrari red with black trim. They give me pleasure every day just looking at them. In my smallish (12x18x9) space with them about 10 ' apart and me about 8' in front of them I can't get enough. They are so immediate and fast and defined, and image like crazy, and I find myself listening to them at alarmingly loud levels, but they also sound wonderful at medium and low levels.
OK they are great speakers, and the Def4s are even greater, and someday, even though my space is smallish, and I can't really afford them, I will probably buy the Def4s because I am an Audiophile damn it !
But it is not just about the speakers.
I first contacted Zu in July, and Sean (the owner of the company) responded to my query to audition some Zu speakers, and since I travel to Los Angeles from my home in Southern Oregon frequently, he introduced me to Phil who lives in LA, and generously invited me to his home to listen to both his Druids and Def4s. I fell in love with both of Phil's systems, especially the Def4 and Audion 845 monos. I also share some common ground in that we both have been buying audio gear for some 40+ years, and also believe our listening spaces should be part of our living spaces, and not buried deep in a man cave. Of course Phil's brain is much bigger than mine, and as any Audiogoner knows, very few can articulate like he does. But the main thing about him is that he is a true audio altruist, generous with his time and knowledge. Think about it, he can choose any gear he wants, and he has experienced more than most, and he chooses Zu and Audion. Me too. Thanks for all your guidance Phil.
Here is the thing about Zu, it inspires passion, it responds to it's customers, and it constantly refines current models and develops new ones. This cap discussion is a case in point. Less than 6 months after release there are now different caps (Clarity) on the basic DruidV.
I met Sean in person at the show in San Francisco last summer and had dinner with him and several other fans of his speakers. He is a great guy, humble and charismatic at the same time. He will literally do whatever needs to be done to satisfy us customers. He really believes in the mutually beneficial long term relationship. After getting the Druid home, I was neurotically obsessing over the optimum floor gap, and he offered to make the 12 hour drive one way to help me get it right. I figured it out and did not accept his offer. But he would have made the trip.
And he has wonderful and fairly priced cables, and great cartridges, and even builds some wonderful heavily modded Technics SL1200 turntables on occasion. All voiced with his speakers. Can you say synergy?
I am out of the Audio wilderness thanks to Zu, Sean, and Phil.
I am content. |
>>Phil,any revised thoughts on the SIT-1 amplifiers with further listening?<<
No; SIT-1 is a dead end. Great tonality, body & speed for solid state. Closer to realism than anything else silicon I've ever heard. But while bass character & texture are stellar I agree with Keithr -- the bloom on the uptick and the desiccated decay are inconsistent & distracting if you've lived with better. Sean Casey, who has heard the alleged magic of a DHT preamp into SIT-1s felt my various tube preamps do a fine job of driving the SIT-1 for valid evaluation. I didn't have even a few seconds of desire for SIT-1 over any of my Audions. Best SS is a benchmark but it doesn't elbow the Audion SETs, so what's the point? Then the dynamic limits quash any edge SIT retains. Sure, if someone stipulates they have to own SS or need absolute quiet, I'll suggest SIT-1 monoblocks as best alternative for them. Because with Zu they will be. But absent such stipulations (I have no reason to eschew tubes, and a little noise isn't my chief worry in life) a small minority of fast, transparent, toneful SET amps will yield more natural, holistic results. SIT-1 interest is now in my rear view mirror. Next topology challenger?
Phil |
Phil, my comment on the Zu 103's strident top end should have been amended to state just a hint of it. It was only apparent on very treble heavy material, or poor tipped up mastering.
I can honestly say that all the basic qualities of the Zu 103 are present and correct, just enhanced by a really transparent quality which is allowing a greater level of detail retrieval to occur. All the fantastic tonality of the stock Zu 103 is present, with an extra air of refinement. If it had turned out any different, I would have been mightily disappointed. Still recommend you give ESCCo a go if you have a Zu 103 knocking about, unused. |
I believe that I own the second pair of Druid V that were produced. I picked them up at Zu's facility in Ogden, Utah at the end of last September. They are wonderful speakers and continue to improve, and I am told this improvement can go on for a year.
One aspect of the Druid not mentioned is that they are a beautiful speaker. Their shape is what you could accurately describe as iconic. Mine are high gloss Ferrari red with black trim. They give me pleasure every day just looking at them. In my smallish (12x18x9) space with them about 10 ' apart, and me about 8' in front of them I can't get enough. They are so immediate and fast and defined, and image like crazy, and I find myself listening to them at alarmingly loud levels, but they also sound wonderful at medium and low levels.
OK they are great speakers, and the Def4s are even greater, and someday, even though my space is smallish, and I can't really afford them, I will probably buy the Def4s because I am an Audiophile damn it !
But it is not just about the speakers.
I first contacted Zu in July, and Sean (the owner of the company) responded to my query to audition some Zu speakers, and since I travel to Los Angeles from my home in Southern Oregon frequently, he introduced me to Phil who lives in LA, and generously invited me to his home to listen to both his Druids and Def4s. I fell in love with both of Phil's systems, especially the Def4 and Audion 845 monos. I also share some common ground in that we both have been buying audio gear for some 40+ years, and also believe our listening spaces should be part of our living spaces, and not buried deep in a man cave. Of course Phil's brain is much bigger than mine, and as any Audiogoner knows, very few can articulate like he does. But the main thing about him is that he is a true audio altruist, generous with his time and knowledge. Think about it, he can choose any gear he wants, and he has experienced more than most, and he chooses Zu and Audion. Me too. Thanks for all your guidance Phil.
Here is the thing about Zu, it inspires passion, it responds to it's customers, and it constantly refines current models and develops new ones. This cap discussion is a case in point. Less than 6 months after release there are now different caps (Clarity) on the basic DruidV.
I met Sean in person at the show in San Francisco last summer and ended up having dinner with him and several other fans of Zu. He is a great guy, humble and charismatic at the same time. He will literally do whatever needs to be done to satisfy us customers. Emails to Zu get answered. He really believes in the mutually beneficial long term relationship. After getting the Druid home, I was neurotically obsessing over the optimum floor gap, and he offered to make the 12 hour drive to help me get it right. I figured it out and did not accept his offer, but he would have made the trip.
And he has wonderful and fairly priced cables, and great cartridges, and even offers a wonderful, heavily modded, Technics SL1200 turntable on occasion. All voiced with his speakers. Can you say synergy?
In this sometimes solitary pursuit I feel very lucky to have developed what I hope will be a couple of longterm friendships.
I am out of the Audio wilderness thanks to Zu, Sean, and Phil.
I am content. |
This a great post. Two people that do indeed love Zu as I do. The wrangling about amps and their 'sound' when mated to the Druid V is humorous and necessary. Perhaps Srajan said it best
""But all this is simply a function of personal tastes. What I think becomes a bit counterproductive is making judgmental narrow-minded statement that border on gonzo jingoism.""
I love the information gentlemen. I love my Musical Design hybrid T 100 amp, but I always love the intelligent conversation. Thank you:) |
Phil -
What are you thoughts on the merits of Druid V with a pair of Submissions vs. Def4's? I am guessing that makes the 2 alternatives comparable in price... |
Phil,
Thanks for your lucid and detailed followup impression of the SIT-1 amplifier.I`m grateful you and Keithr are generous in sharing your up close and 'own system' experiences with this component.It makes sense why Srajan prefers them, and equal sense why you and Keithr do not.
Regards, |
I love my SET amp and pre, but I would love to hear a YBA Passion amp coupled with my Pre. I've owned two yba integrated amps. The absolutle sweetest (Phil is responsible for my leap to the tube side and I followed a little later on with SET. Thank you Phil) high current ss wpc I've ever heard. I can only imagine the marraige of the two. You see YBA for sale on the 'gon almost as much as an Audion... :) |
Honestly, prior to placing my order for the Druid Mk V, is Phil saying that any Cap is great. I do understand the topology. My used Essences arrived with both Caps hanging loose from the tweeter. Yes, they are Mundorfs.
So, should I go with the basic Cap and call it good? I can always purchase the Caps myself, based upon good knowledge. Soldering is not difficult:) |
Dale,
Your question regarding the Essence.....I have not heard the Druid V. However, I have heard Druid 1, 2, 4, 4/08, Defintion 1, 3, Essence, Essence with HO dirvers upgraded.
I did upgrade to Essence from Druid 4/08. I definitely enjoyed the increase in depth of bass output vs. the 4/08, however as many others have pointed out, the "live" Zu presentation was dialed back a bit and they did not seem to have the top end magic that those of us Zu fans were used to. That being said, I personally enjoyed them and continue to do so. Sean from Zu was able to stop by my house last year on the tail end of a local Zu house party. He installed the HO nano drivers, and the magic is back! After the transformation, this speaker IMHO is fantastic, and is in not in any danger of being replaced in my 2 ch. stereo rig.
So if you are still considering Essence, I would suggest that you inquire if you can get a pair with the HO drivers.
Todd |
