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04-30-13
Drakef5: an audio club budy of mine uses a denon avr, suple ... Bondmanp
04-30-13: Coot
Re: Power for 5000
I am considering both a new power amp and later adding subs. It has been stated here and elsewhere these speakers need lots of power. Is the power needed for the bass driver or the rest of the drivers? If I add powered subs, does the 5000 still need the same amount of power as without the subs?
Current amp is c1990 B&K EX-442 ~180WPC @8Ohms. Thinking of D-Sonics.
Any and all comments welcome.
Coot (Answers | This Thread)
04-30-13: Mapman
D-Sonics are worth a try IMHO.
More recent models are better suited for use with a tube pre-amp I recall.
Current delivery/robust power supply is more important than just power/watts.
Using subs should offload low bass from mains and reduce demand on the main amp so lesser amplification might be used if a good sub or two is in the equation.
IMHO, OHMs right sized t o the room with optimal power amplification do not need subs, but using subs is certainly an option if desired.
Mapman (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
04-30-13
I should add that music is mostly classical of which a large ... Coot
04-30-13: Carja
Coot I think 180 wpc@8 ohms is enough. Before I got my McCormack (250 wpc), I was using 130 wpc amp and it sounded nice. The extra power was noticed primarily in the deep bass response, and you should be fine, particularly with classical music. Also remember that Ohms have an impedence of 6 ohms, which means your 180 watts will be over 200.
Carja (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
04-30-13: Mapman
Fore Coot, with classical/organ music, and OHM 5000s, 250-500 juicy watts from a good Class D amp or appropriately beefy Class A/B may well add value.
My Bel Cantos I use on OHM 5s are 500w/ch of good Class D. That should do it I would think, but extra power in reserve if needed can probably not hurt, though some caution to avoid overdriving might be in order in that my 500w/ch amps seem to never break a sweat and I have never tried anything even more powerful.
I'd do the amp right first and then determine if any need for subs. With organ music, they may or may not still add something of value if set up right, depending.
Mapman (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
04-30-13: Bondmanp
Coot - If you review my more recent posts, you will see that my Odyssey Audio HT3 amp (w/ cap upgrade), which is rated at 150 watts/channel @ 8 ohms, was audibly clipping **in the midrange**, especially on vocals. I do run my Walsh 2000s with powered subs, but the Odyssey was struggling with the midrange. IMHO, I would go with a beefier power amp before I added subs to a pair of 5000s. You will still get plenty of bass out of the Ohms, and if your room is large, and your present amp is clipping, you could damage the 5000s.
Bondmanp (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
05-01-13
Thank you all for your sound advice (pun intended). i will g ... Coot
05-01-13
Coot: at the rate i am going, you'll have your new amp befo ... Bondmanp
05-01-13: Coot
Absolutely! I have learned much from you guys and other forums as well. Only fair to reciprocate.
My system is MacMini > M2Tech Hiface2 USB/spdif converter > M2Tech Young DAC > Placette VCU > B&K EX442 > Ohm Acoustics 5000s
Regarding the amps' break-in, can I run them with speakers off w/o damage?
Coot (Answers | This Thread)
05-02-13: Tobeornottobe
Coot, is that Placette VCU a Placette Audio passive linestage preamp? If so, you might have an impedance mismatch with the D-Sonic M2 which I believe have an input impedance of only 10Kohm. Actually there some confusion, is the D-Sonic M2 input impedance 10Kohm or 60Kohm? At 10Kohm it will give trouble (roll off highs) to resistor type passive preamp and some tube preamps. If the input impedance 60Kohm, there should be no problem.
Tobeornottobe (Answers | This Thread)
05-02-13: Mapman
I'd check the input impedance spec of the newer D-Sonic amps.
The older ones were stock Icepower, 10K ohm input impedance, not a great match for most higher output impedance pre-amps, like most tube pre-amps. DOn't know about Placette specifically.
Newer D-Sonics use Pascal Class D modules I believe and I recall reading these have 40K or so input impedance, which is much better for use with high output impedance pre-amps.
I would confirm the D-Sonic output impedance specs though in that I am not 100% certain about specs of the newer D-Sonics.
Mapman (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
05-02-13
Also if anyone is interacting with d-sonic to buy, if you ca ... Mapman
05-02-13: Tobeornottobe
At D-Sonic website under the Product tab, the input impedance for the 600W and 1500W output M2 series are listed as 60Kohm. But I e-mailed Mr. Deacon last month asking him what is the input impedance of the M2-1200S and M2-3000S stereo amp. He replied 10Kohm. So I'm not sure, but 10Kohm should be fine for all solid state active preamps and most tube preamps.
Tobeornottobe (Answers | This Thread)
05-02-13: Mapman
TObe,
10K ohm input impedance may be fine for many tube pre-amps, but I would just note that there are some Class D amps designed to work well with any pre-amp, inlcuding tube, like Wyred4Sound and Bel Canto, that introduce 60Kohm or higher input impedance for that purpose for best results in all cases. 10K may sound fine but could be more hit or miss for best results in terms of dynamics and low distortion IMHO. The reason is that most impedance ratings including those for pre-amp outputs are nominal for all frequencies but actual impedance varies significantly by frequency, so my opinion is that a high amp input impedance is a good insurance policy in order to be safe.
Mapman (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
05-02-13
Btw, i considered the older d-sonic icepower based amps at t ... Mapman
05-02-13
First question for me is what class d amp modules d-sonic us ... Mapman
05-02-13
You are right but wyred 4 sound and other manufacturers incl ... Tobeornottobe
05-02-13: Tobeornottobe
Mapman, your ARC SP16 tube preamp has a output impedance of 260 ohms. Using the simple rule of thumb that the input impedance of your amp should have at least 10 times or more, the output impedance of your preamp, 260 ohms * 10 = 2.6Kohm. At 10Kohm for the D-Sonic M2, your ARC tube preamp would have no problems whatsoever.
Tobeornottobe (Answers | This Thread)
05-02-13
Tobe, my approach in landing on the bel cantos was no holds ... Mapman
05-02-13
I exchanged several emails with dennis a couple of months ag ... Wtf
05-02-13
Tobe, my placette is a volume control unit which uses vashay ... Coot
05-03-13: Tobeornottobe
Your B&k EX442 amp input impedance is 24Kohm and the Placette passive preamp is rather high at 2Kohm output impedance but both should work fine together. At 10kohm input impedance for D-Sonic M2 the high end will begin to roll off. Yes talk to Dennis when you are ready to make the purchase.
Tobeornottobe (Answers | This Thread)
05-03-13
Thanks. i was not aware there was much difference in amps' r ... Coot
05-04-13: Peterr53
Wow...
After being gone a while due to some health issues I realized that the five hundred or so posts had swollen to an amazing 1800+ LOL
I wanted to chime in about anchoring the Ohm's to the floor with more then those laughable casters (sorry John).
To realize the full potential of these speakers something had to been done. As my listening room is on a raised floor
not concrete, I figured I had to build a platform that would couple the speakers to the floor properly. I tried some plywood... No good.
Then on to 1/2" thick marble slab that was ok (still sitting on those silly casters from the 70's).
At this point I figured the speakers deserved something overwhelmingly solid that wouldn't cost an arm and a leg.
I did call my metal warehouse that promptly told me that they would be more then happy to cut my aluminum bases to size....$1300 thank you!!
So after NOT discussing the cost with my wife, I decided on concrete as the price was agreeable, and making the molds was a snap :-)
As you can see in the image Speakers were painted in an automotive dark grey urethane, stand-off's in stainless steel. The bases added an amazing
110 lbs of mass, and I added an additional 4+inches worth of height.
I always loved my Ohm's, but there was the image height that totally screwed with my enjoyment as it sounded like...... short people music.
Now I have a rock solid, correct imaging height, and fantastic dynamics.
I also had John install Bybee speaker bullets inside the speakers.
This system does duty for stereo and surround sound and it is pretty amazing
considering how much I invested in the system.
Here's the images of my Ohm's...
http://s185.photobucket.com/user/m7tuning/media/Ohm1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
http://s185.photobucket.com/user/m7tuning/media/Ohm2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
Peter
Peterr53 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
05-04-13: Tobeornottobe
Coot, your Placette passive preamp is very highly regarded. You just need to be sure the amp you are getting has an input impedance higher than 20Kohm. Talk to Dennis, maybe his amps really are 60Kohm input impedance which would be perfect with your Placette passive preamp.
Tobeornottobe (Answers | This Thread)
05-05-13: Dsremer
Ohm is currently offering a deal on driver upgrades to their 4000 series. I currently have both walsh 4's and 300mk11 any thoughts on the 4000 driver as a replacement for either of these speakers
Dennis
Dsremer (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
05-06-13: Wtf
Peter .. seriously gorgeous. Seems you have taken your Ohms to another level, quite literally.
Wtf (Answers | This Thread)
05-07-13: Bondmanp
Regarding the OEM source of the amp modules in D-Sonics amps, if you read the 6Moons review, you'll see that Dennis ain't talkin'. IMHO, that's his prerogative. It's all about the sound. If the amp sounds good, what difference does it make, really, which amp modules he is using? FWIW, my McIntosh C220 works swell with my 10K ohm input resistance Odyssey Audio SS amp, even with 20' RCA runs and the Vandersteen outboard HP filters. No HF roll off that I can hear.
Peterr53: Thanks for the post. Fascinating. FWIW, my Walsh 2000s have no issue with image hieght. In most cases, the image reaches my 6' ceiling. I had Sound Ancors custom make solid, adjustable three-point spiked, cradle bases for my 2000s for around $325/pr. A real step up in imaging and transient detail.
Bondmanp (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
05-07-13
If you click several times on the open case d-sonic m2 600 m ... Tobeornottobe
05-07-13: Tobeornottobe
Bondmanp, I look up the output impedance for your McIntosh C220, it's 250 ohm, so yes, no problem going into a 10Kohm input impedance amp.
Tobeornottobe (Answers | This Thread)
05-07-13
Yes, those pics have come up on another thread about m-sonic ... Mapman
05-07-13
Sorry, meant d-sonic, not m. Mapman
05-07-13
Why would dennis deacon risk hurting business sales by not r ... Tobeornottobe
05-07-13
The difference, at least historically, between d-sonic and w ... Mapman
05-07-13
Bondmanp.. so the imaging was perfect on you're 2000's, bef ... Peterr53
05-08-13
Early on dennis did offer, as an option, a buffer stage to i ... Tobeornottobe
05-08-13
Tobe, i suppose dennis has his reasons and motivations for ... Mapman
05-08-13
But i'm with you and others who wish d-sonic would be more o ... Tobeornottobe
05-08-13
I suspect most of d-sonic customers are not running tube pre ... Mapman
05-08-13
Peterr53: perfect imaging? is there such a thing? i never ... Bondmanp
05-08-13
A solid foundation is key to getting best performance out of ... Mapman
05-08-13
"regarding the oem source of the amp modules in d-sonic ... Wtf
05-09-13: Bondmanp
Wtf: Exactly! Dennis is not obligated to disclose information about his amps, and you are not obligated to buy one. Similarly, witness the absence of Magnepan reviews in Stereophile. Stereophile requires bench testing for all full reviews in the magazine. That's the editor's prerogative. Magnepan won't allow this bench testing, because of the unique nature of their speakers, which produces, in their view, test results inconsistant with the speakers' performance. Magnepan's prerogative, and an impass. So, no Stereophile reviews of Magnepan speakers. I guess Dennis would rather lose some sales than disclose information which he feels gives him a competitive edge. For every audiophile who skips D-Sonic amps because of this, there is probably another one, like me, who cares mostly about the way the sausage tastes, not how it's made. YMMV, as they say.
And, I must say, that this topic is very relevent to a thread on Ohm speakers, since John Strohbeen is somewhat quiet on some of the ingredients of his own special sauce.
Bondmanp (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
05-09-13: Mapman
YEs, I thought the same thing regarding D-Sonic and JS/OHM.
One downside with OHM that results is that many CLS drivers look the same on the outside but are different by design internally. That makes it very hard to know exactly what you are getting second hand. Even direct from OHM, you do not know anything for sure really about whats inside, only how it sounds.
One difference is that what makes the OHM sound is JS/OHMs design, whereas in the case of D-Sonic, what makes it is determined by what amp module is used, and D-Sonic does not design or make that hence they have limited control of that over the long term. AMp A today, amp B tomorrow? How are they different? How is the sound affected, etc? Very hard to say, whereas with OHM I think JS designs his products to have a particular sound and he has a lot of control over how to do that, especially given the nature of Walsh drivers and how those are quite tunable to produce a certain result.
Mapman (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
05-09-13
As a manufacturer it blows me away that anyone would expect ... Peterr53
05-10-13
Mapman: i am not sure i agree with you on class d amps. wh ... Bondmanp
05-10-13
" i could be way off on this, but even the d-sonic amps ... Mapman
05-11-13
My point is d-sonic has been around for a while now and folk ... Wtf
05-11-13
Peter, i see this as a potential marketing mistake. at the ... Martykl
05-12-13
"i sympathize with (and fully understand) the desire to ... Wtf
05-15-13: Carja
Have you guys seen the new Ohm website? ohmspeaker.com It's a beta site, much better than the current version, plus there is an incentive to find errors I can't believe it, but the Ohm 5000 talls are priced at $3250, instead of the current $6500. No kidding! Check it out.
Carja (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
05-15-13
Oops! my bad- the new website lists the 5000's at $3250 each ... Carja
05-15-13: Parasound63
The new Ohm site is pretty incredible. It's like they just time-jumped from the early 90's to day in one leap.
If nothing else, take a look at the impressive lineup of center channel speakers. Oh,m and surround speakers
Oh, and the sub based on the old F cabinet looks like it might be a beast!
Definitely worth a visit to check it out.
Parasound63 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
05-15-13
"oh, and the sub based on the old f cabinet looks like ... Coot
05-16-13
I think the new site is definately a big step in the right d ... Frazeur1
05-16-13
New website? the link is not working .. help! Wtf
05-16-13: Martykl
The new website ohmspeaker.com is kinda shocking. Moped to rocketship overnight. If John is reading this, the only thing missing is an easy "click thru" to a photo of each model from the data sheet page. Other than that, welcome to the new millennium, Ohm!
Martykl (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
05-16-13
Hallelujah!!!! it's about time that 1990's style website go ... Mapman
05-16-13: Kbuzz
The new website looks great. Anyone know when /if the pics of the various center channels will be up?
I have a nice ohm center but its a bit tall and was wondering what the pancake and other versions look like.
Kbuzz (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
05-16-13
Aargh! i go one day without checking this thread or reading ... Finsup
05-16-13
Well now there it is! nice. Wtf
05-17-13: Coot
Aside from maintenance issues, what would be your reason(s) for not using a tube amp for for Ohms? Just curious as I understand 100W tubed = ~500W SS.
Coot (Answers | This Thread)
05-17-13: Mapman
Coot,
I might consider a tube amp if not for the cost and maintenance issues. Teh tube amp would haveto have way more tubes than I would care to tend to to have a chance of maxing out the OHMS at higher volumes. Using a sub and offloading much of the low end to that opens up more possibilities in regards to using a tube amp to maximum effect.
Mapman (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
05-17-13: Mapman
Coot,
I would qualify that somewhat further and say in a smaller room, with smaller OHMs perhaps, and for certain musical and listening tastes/preferences, OHMs alone + a modest power tube amp alone might fit the bill. The bigger the room, and the more demand for good extended bass, the less chance of a smaller, lower maintenance tube amp cutting it alone I think.
OHM + modest tube amp will certainly work, especially at lower to moderate volume. A lot has to do with personal preferences and situation.
Mapman (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
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