A year to break in at those prices? Why does the manufacturer not break them in before they are sold. If a speaker can't be broken in after running it for a month with pink/white noise, you have been had. Sounds like 6moons has lost its way in thinking it makes any sense. |
i concur. i'm not waiting a year for something to sound good. |
they'll prob take abt 400hrs to break-in (as with most ceramic driver based speakers). |
IT is RIDICULOUS to pretend that a speaker needs 1 year to break in
There is no physical reason to that
Some reviewers are incompetent.
Maybe (as all the marten design line) the alto have the awful/penible high
It probably takes 1 year to completely destroy your ears and make them sound less aggressive.
. |
samuel33, i hv run my martens' with a fair variety of amps (both tubes & ss) & never experienced this "awful/penible high" that you speak of. am rather curious what system you heard the coltrane altos' (or some other marten speaker) in?! |
I have heard them,and must say that they are just great.
Having said that,The fast sound might not be to everybody's taste.This is WAY.....better than Magico's highly regarded mini,to my ears
If you pay particular attention to quality source[dcs puccini ,for eg] and tube amps[my preference for the Marten] you would be rewarded with a wonderful,beautiful set of speakers |
Alexsee , the penible Highs are the plague of modern speakers
Some speakers suffer less than other of this problem
Marten design is quite on the side of overly in your face, as Avalon indra and many ceramic based speakers
It is enjoyable at first and not that great after
It is why tube amp are great with these speakers it makes them sound more gentle
It was not a post against Marten design 90% of the avaible speakers suffer from that problem
because it is easy to sell speakers that impress at first
-----
And the point of my post was to say that a 1 year breaking is a physical non sense
The high destructing the ears in one year was a joke... |
|
Pénible = not enjoyable
In this case agrrrresive, unatural |
hi samuel33, you think 90% of aval./modern speakers hv aggressive/unnatural highs? hv you entertained the possibility that the cause of this problem might lie elsewhere - possibly an inferior digital source?! |
Alexsee the problem is the way people compare hi-fi system
Them make quick switch between them, and choose the more spectacular one
So manufacturer always put a boost in highs (and high bass) to sell more easely
When manufacturer don't ; they have the reputation to be boring
For example Avalon Isis is told to be too "neutral" in fact it is a correctly tuned (and wonderfull) speaker
For the Indra they have boosted the highs to make it more fun
I mean an indra is still more correct than most of the speakers in the industry but it is an example to explain the thing
----
Look on audiogon 99% of people say BS abourt audio, because they don't know the correct methodology to listen a system and they have not correct audio playback to judge either
It is not their fault as they need to have speakers rent for days in their home for judging correctly
And shop rarely do that
|
Early models had that problem, after that review Marten built the room for breaking in finished louspeakers. They also break-in raw drivers.
Lot of loudspeakers haven't been broken in and the annoying High End (ringing) is main drawback. |
Teddy bear you give false information
There are NOT any drivers or speakers that need 1 year or 6 months breaking in
It is not possible on a theorical point of view.
Of course you can invent that it is the case for Marten design's speakers and invent a room where the speakers are breakin during months before they are put for sale.
But it is not true.
You don't fool anybody
I am sure that you believe in ion stuff and magical stones that pretend to improve sound
"Believers" are the today's plague of audio industry |
Samuel33
They break in their speaker in house for 3 days and ship them to distributors/dealers.
I never said they need 6/12 months of break-in.
Samuel33 you should know the facts before you put your hands and keyboard in motion. |
Teddy bear the subject is about a speaker that is claimed to need 365 days of breaking in.
You post that Marten Coltrane have build a special room to ensure THIS problem
So yes i thought you were implying that he was putting the speakers for weeks or months in that prupose
it was logical on my point of view to think so
And now you say that the speakers are in a room during 3 days
We are quite far from 365 days hein?
-----
By the way what is the name of this reviewer ?
We should definitely memorized his name
. |
Someone once told me that their Avalon Sentinels were still improving even after a year. Is it true? Who could really say. It might be. When did theory or logic become relevant to audio?
I do believe it can take 3-6 months for speakers to sound their best. Maybe less for some, maybe more for others. I'm not exactly sure why. I don't believe in the psycho-acoustic reasoning that you just get used to the sound. With time, the ear tends to pick-up more on the negative aspects, not ignore them.
Now where are these magic stones? I need to get my hands on some of them.
Rob |
Rob said : Someone once told me that their Avalon Sentinels were still improving even after a year. Is it true? Who could really say. It might be. It might as it might be that the Big BUBU live at the bottom of the seas In fact the thing is not to proove the inexistence of something, on a methodological point of view it is not possible to proove that something doesn't exist Does invisble green earthworms exist on the moon ? Who knows ! . |
To Samuel33,
Marten is the firm Coltrane is their famous model. And this thread is about Coltrane Alto model.
They play speakers 72hours at max level.
Average speaker needs 200-400 hours of break-in on moderate volume. If you listen to the speakers 2 hours a day you will need 100-200 days for break in |
I have seem the term "fast sound" in describing both speakers and electronic gear. What does this term mean? |
Samuel33, speakers are mechanical devices.....they move. like any mechanical device breakin will be somewhat in stages.....these stages will vary according to the unique combination of parts and construction method.....and even environment, ancilary gear and intensity of use.
depending on the level of information of a particular system; these various stages will be audible. the earliest stages are most easily identified.
specifically with speakers like the Marten, which i've owned, and the very similar Kharma which i've also owned; there is an initial breakin time of about 400-500 hours where the changes are easily heard. personally; i would not want to pay any manufacturer to do this complete break-in.....i'd rather they insure the speaker works properly and allow me to spend the time myself....and 72 hours of manufacturer break-in time seems very considerate from my perspective.
speakers most capable of high resolution will need to be designed to sound correctly 'after' breakin. if a speaker needs to be 'dumbed down' so it is already mellow prior to breakin that speaker will end up a bit toothless after breakin. again; speakers are designed and voiced with parts that are broken in for a good reason.
in my experience; after that initial 400+ hour breakin, over the next 6 to 9 months the bass articulation will little by little improve, little bits of bass detail and grip pop out that wern't there before. a very slight edgyness on some music smooths out, and a bit more texture and tonal shading becomes evidant. overall, refinement is improved.....subtle but real.
this process happens specifically on speakers and cartridges; i've broken in a number of sets of speakers and maybe a dozen or more high end cartridges.....the same pattern repeats every time to one degree or another. as my system has become more highly resolving over time it is easier to notice.
sorry you have not experienced these wonderful things happening. you have every right to disagree if you like. |
Mikelavigne of course i disagree.
Yes the mechnical parts need sometimes a little breakin.
I had speakers with ceramic drivers so yes there is a longer breakin for ceramic than for some other drivers
But we are talking about much more time it needs
I know as the first commentary talks about a year and not about hours of use, there will be weird calculations as "if the guy use the speakers 30min per day it makes the end of breakin after 1 year and blablabla"
I mean can we stop telling false and exagerating stuff ?
It is exactly why people are buying today power cord at 10k
You mikelavigne (and many other reviewers) are saying so much false informations that now innocent people are buying many things that are not needed to improve really the sound.
I don't know you personnaly Mike, but i know people that describe you as nice personn, i don't say that you have no integrity
I say you are a gentle believer, but your position as a director of an audio magazine should push you to be a little more serious in the audio approach. |
Samuel33 based on your posts on AG forums it seems that you don't have a clue about High End. You're like 16 year old kid in daddy's Ferari tryng to get out of the crashed car not knowing what has happened.
Please do yourself a favour and buy B&O system and everyone you know will like you more. |
Teddy bear i am so far above your knowledge
I have heard system that even mike laigne doesn't know the existence
Maybe i am new in the place but fast learning and not spent my life in stupid shops with always the same bad things
More than that i have my study in the domain of theory of accoustic that kind of help now LOL
Take care and learn
. |
Samuel33, thank you for the respectful comments. i do audio for pleasure and have no interest in conflict. 'real life' has plenty enough of stress and conflict.
we don't need to agree.....just be open to what our ears tell us.
btw, i am no longer associated directly with Positive Feedback as a reviewer, in fact, i was barely ever a reviewer...and only wrote a couple of articles which might be said to be reviews. even when i was associated with PF i never 'spoke' for them. i don't consider myself an expert at anything audio; rather an observer of audio and enjoyer of music. |
Nevermind Mike, i didn't want to put you under pressure
At first i thought that people here and in other places knew what they where talking about
I was so naive.
1 year ago i start reading serious scientifical books and traveling to listen to most of the high end production of today AND of the past
I am fed up with bad speakers (95% of what is avaible today) ; cables or power cord at XXXXX$ ; false technical information spread everywhere.
It is always the same bad sound and the same bad technical approach to make them
People just don't read anything except reviews and forum, it is not a place to share here just a place to repeat the same mistakes, lies read somewhere
It is why i have ask to stop my account here and everywhere on the web.
I don't learn anything there anymore, and i don't want to be aggressiv so...
And you make a point people come here for pleasure, and i don't have this pleasure anymore
So i am going to do as you just enjoy the music and that's it ! |
if you call a speaker driver manufacturer, they will tell you 400-500 hrs of break in is bogus. try it. |
2 Samuel33 your learning curve is steep but you know it's short way down. If you find AG forums not interesting enough try toys'r'us stores.
2 Keithr loudspeaker does have lot more parts then just the edrivers. |
Samuel33- So here you are on yet another thread spouting more negative gibberish about things you obviously can't clearly communicate nor clearly understand. Instead of whining and complaining to anyone who actually tries to respond to you, it would be a really good thing if you just stopped. I totally agree with Teddy_bear's comments above. We are all here for pleasure and to learn and share.
You might also keep in mind that sometimes it is wiser to be quiet and be thought a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt(happens a lot to people that think they know everything). Just a thought...... |
if speakers do break in over such a long time, why have i never read a break-in that went awry and the listener hated it?
its your ears "breaking" in, not the speaker.
KR |
2KR Maybe you read to little? My ears are just fine and they get calibrated in concerts of unampilfied classical music.
Thank you for your care of my wellbeing:) |
My speakers have about 700 hours on them and they definitely have sounded better as the crossovers, wiring, drivers, driver surrounds, etc. have gotten more hours on them. Its also not "my ears" as others have noticed the same thing listening to my system. The speakers sound considerably better now than when they were new, as I hoped they would. |
Fplanner2000- do you have any frequency response graphs to back up your claim? That would prove your point easily then. |
Keithr
No - unlike you, I don't need a frequency response graph to tell me what I am hearing. I also have no interest in "proving" any points to you or anyone else - its a waste of time and this is not a contest. Very few real audiophiles bother with such things (Atkinson excepted because that's his job and even he sometimes has a tough time describing why a component sounds one way but specs out another) They use their ears. Its about the enjoyment, the palpability, the "you-are-there" feeling that is immeasurable - it doesn't equate out to a frequency response graph. You probably don't believe that bumblebees fly either, because the data says they shouldn't be able to. Life is full of paradoxes, in audio as in most everything else. When you try to over-analyze things, it can easily ruin the moment.
I know there are others out there like you, hung up on empirical findings. Fortunately for audio, I think there are a lot more people like me, who use their ears to guide them, not a graph. The fact that we can coexist peacefully and share ideas is a testament to the diversity and flexibility of this hobby. Please note that I mean no disrespect by any of the above comments. |
look, i'm really not an objectivist so please don't take it so. but when people make claims of 1k hours with no backup except golden ears, i have serious doubts (especially with speaker driver manufacturers telling you otherwise). considering most people here on a'gon swap out gear in their system at an expedient/alarming rate, there really is no viable comparison after such time!
and when a speaker manufacturer makes claims, its even worse as why would i want to buy a speaker i can't enjoy to the fullest for a year? that's crazy!
i personally have noticed speaker break-in---maybe 48 hours tops running (for tight, large bass drivers such as those in my Wilsons when broken in with heavy bass music). i continually run in my speakers for that amount of time at high levels, so perhaps i'm in the minority.
i personally feel the 400-500-1000 hours stuff is for dealers to make sure they don't get gear returned as it hasn't been in the customer's environment for very long and there ears haven't adjusted to it in there system.
and yes, a simple frequency sweep at hour 1 and hour 1000 would be excellent (and easy with Rat Shack SPL meter and freeware)---after all, that is what the designer uses to relay what he wants you to hear!! as JA often states, it is good to relay what you hear and what you see on measurements---the combination is attractive to many audiophiles such as myself. i try not to rely on one or the other 100%.
one more thing--pro audio seems to be much more into measurements than audiophiles. interesting phenomenon considering that is what people record/master stuff with.
cheers, and like you--i mean no disrespect at all. |
