Click title to read one, or click date to read all below it.
02-21-08
All of the dunlavy models measured remarkably flat, anechoic ... Kthomas
02-22-08
I think these are anechoic or simulated anechoic (time-gated ... Audiokinesis
02-22-08
The usher be-718 is flatter than most i've seen, as measured ... Hesson11
02-22-08
Hesson11, that is a very eductional set of curves. thanks f ... Audiokinesis
02-22-08
Thanks, duke. i'm guilty of focusing too often on on-axis me ... Hesson11
02-22-08
Duke, the k&h o 500 measurements are absolutely stunning (a ... Shadorne
02-22-08: Jkalman
Hesson11,
I use this page. it is a list of all the NRC measured speakers:
http://www.soundstageav.com/speakermeasurements.html
Jkalman (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-22-08
aha ....now you have hit the nail on the head in respect of ... Shadorne
02-22-08
Shadorne, i think i heard that model (or possibly a predeces ... Audiokinesis
02-22-08
Duke & shadorne, do you think those measurements are a cons ... Bob_reynolds
02-22-08
thanks - although too forward is how many would describe at ... Shadorne
02-22-08
Shadorne, i hadn't seen your post four up when i typed my re ... Audiokinesis
02-22-08
I recall a thread where there was an argument about the rele ... Shadorne
02-22-08
Thanks for that link, jkalman. i obviously hadn't come acros ... Hesson11
02-22-08
Duke, i thought that driver interaction at the crossover has ... Bob_reynolds
02-22-08
Bob, typically driver interaction has a large effect on radi ... Audiokinesis
02-23-08
Thanks duke. you are right, i see that now in the plots at b ... Bob_reynolds
02-23-08
It's amazing to see that some of my favorite speakers tend t ... Ejliu
02-23-08: Jkalman
Shadorne,
The ATC has a very flat response. Do you find that flat responses sometimes limit the 3rd dimension to the soundstage? In other words, do you find it is more like a two dimensional picture than a three dimensional picture depth-wise?
Thanks.
Jkalman (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-23-08
Looking at the measurements for several speakers i know well ... Drubin
02-23-08
according to dr. toole's group that has been researching su ... Bob_reynolds
02-23-08
no not at all. a flat "power response" without th ... Shadorne
02-23-08: Jkalman
According to Dr. Toole's group that has been researching subjective listening for the past 2 decades, it seems to be very important. Not necessarily flat, but smooth.
The not necessarily flat point is important. Supposedly people like a deviation from flatness in the mid-bass and on top, according to Paul Barton (who also worked with Toole).
The thing that doesn't impress me with their methods is that they cherry pick their testers and instruct them in what qualities they should listen for in the speakers before using them in the tests. They only keep the people who demonstrate an ability to pick out the qualities they are instructed to pick out for the tests.
Jkalman (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-24-08
It is true that the listeners go through an automated " ... Bob_reynolds
02-24-08
agreed - exactly! very few people are aware of this. when i ... Shadorne
02-24-08: Jkalman
Does anyone have any information and a link that quantifies "smooth?" I've been wondering exactly what the term means in respect to frequency response, not as much in phase response.
I'd also be interested in what Paul Barton meant by additional mid-bass and extra sizzle on top, if anyone has a link to numbers.
Thanks.
Jkalman (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-24-08
The deviation on top is a roll-off, not sizzle, i believe. ... Drubin
02-24-08
Shadorne's point is well taken. that is another aspect of dr ... Bob_reynolds
02-24-08
i don't, but toole points out that high resolution measurem ... Bob_reynolds
02-24-08
Jkalman, in my opinion robert e. greene of the absolute soun ... Audiokinesis
02-24-08: Jkalman
Drubin,
You are referring to what Paul Barton said concerning Toole's studies? I've heard that people prefer sizzle on top, not roll-off. Do you have a quote? Thanks.
Jkalman (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-24-08
I think one of the misconceptions about the toole research w ... Williemaso
02-24-08
Jkalman, no i don't have a quote. i was making an assumptio ... Drubin
02-24-08: Jkalman
Actually, what they did was to evaluate and train listners to hear various types of distortions added to program material. As well, this was for research purposes, not in any way a marketing ploy to sell a particular brand of loudspeaker.
The testing also taught listeners how to identify changes to different ranges of the frequency response. Though that could be considered added distortion. I read an interview where Voeks discussed the process. If people couldn't learn to identify changes to frequency response, and didn't identify which one was incorrect, or not flat, they weren't used for the blind testing. People with suboptimal lower and higher frequency hearing were also excluded. I don't think any of this was a ploy, but I do think it is cherry picking, and that will likely affect the final outcome.
Is it a good thing or a bad thing? I don't know. It is good that speakers have some type of technical boundary within which they should measure and that people have tried to shed light on that boundary. It does make me wary though as to exactly what those boundaries are and how much they can differ between different individuals. Especially if those individuals had no training.
I'm planning on experimenting with my own setup to see what I like best. Part of that will include speakers that measure extremely flat. I would consider Revel Ultima2 Salons to be one of the speakers worth experimenting with, but no one around me is carrying them to allow me to demo them at a store... ATC is another one I've been considering (the Pro versions). The Magico Mini II as well.
As for the top end, simply google the EBU target curve and you'll find a good graph.
If you could give a link to something I would appreciate it. I tried Google-ing "EBU target curve" and I didn't get anything useful on the first bunch of pages.
I have been trying to find the quote someone else I know got their information from concerning the "top-end sizzle," but so far no luck (he might have been wrong about the top-end, which is exactly why I want to find some quotes on it - I'm not being cantankerous or anything, just looking for a source).
Thanks.
Jkalman (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-24-08
Search yahoo for "listening conditions for the assessme ... Williemaso
02-24-08
it'll definitely affect the outcome. you'll be able to plac ... Bob_reynolds
02-25-08: Jkalman
Bob,
Teaching people what results to pick, then putting them in a test room to pick those results goes beyond just weeding out the hearing deficient IMO...
Jkalman (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-25-08
absolutely agree. dr toole's experiments helped demonstrate ... Shadorne
02-25-08: Jkalman
It makes sense that a flat frequency response is a good starting point. I don't know if people will inherently like it better without training. I can't even do that kind of experiment on myself, because I've done the Moulton Labs training courses...
It is very easy to take a flat frequency response and alter it after the fact by dropping dBs wherever it suits you if you find you would like to accentuate parts of the spectrum. My understanding is that it is much harder to fix a signal that is inherently flawed.
Jkalman (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-25-08
What do you think of the moulton labs 8 cd's and course? do ... Shadorne
02-25-08: Jkalman
Shadorne,
I liked it. It is cool to be able to understand when you are hearing things like ranges of the frequency response being out of proportion. Of course, with my 40-90Hz bass issues, I already knew there was a problem because of the kick drum from hell.
It is also nice to be able to identify compression, distortion artifacts, phase issues, reverb effects.
Some of the stuff, like effects, is fairly obvious if you play electric guitar (or other instruments where effects are used often), but others, like being able to single out areas of the frequency response when they are boosted, are pretty neat.
Jkalman (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-25-08: Jkalman
Shadorne,
In other words, I recommend it for anyone who is a fan of music. It can only help you appreciate music more by being able to discuss it with greater subtlety.
I would especially recommend it to you because the ATCs measure so flat. They would be perfect speakers for doing the coursework on.
Jkalman (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
02-26-08
Jkalman, you have me convinced. i'll order it. Shadorne
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