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10-15-07: Sherod
I know that my upgraded preamp had no burn-in time on it. The minute Joseph finished the upgrades, he popped it into a box and got it on the first Fedex truck so that he could catch his flight to Denver for the RMAF show. I'm not complaining. It was either that or wait until he returned from the show to do the upgrade and return it to me then. Another week's delay would have killed me. I haven't heard from anyone of receiving anything but a new unit when they order from Audio Horizons, unless it's specified that its a demo unit, which I've only seen one up for sale recently. Then again, for those few preamps that are returned to Joseph, he's got to do something with them to resale. As to if he refurbishes them to be as new when he resales is another question. Victor is getting recuperative rest today after an exhaustive time at the RMAF show with Joseph. He just e-mailed me and told me soon that he would be posting here to clarify some things about the new preamp upgrades as well as tell us all some good news about some contacts he and Joseph made at the show.
Sherod (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
10-15-07
I am also under the understanding that the trial period is 3 ... Grannyring
10-15-07: Stltrains
"Oh, the life of the continuously upgrading audio hobbiest. If only I could leave well enough alone sometimes."
Sherod if this is not the audio truth i dont know what is. I think its the explorer in guys that drives us to this end.
On the CCAs i understand your concern, with the cost of those tubes. Am i correct 10 thousand hrs for a NOS CCA, thats a long time. Mine came today but i wasnt home to sign for them. Tomorrow i will be finding out what the CCA magic is all about. Your quote above qualifies, the siemens that Joseph supplies with 2.1 are sounding very good. but i have to explore.
I love this hobby and quest for the best sound i can afford.
If you chime in Victor how did it go at RMAF.
Stltrains (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
10-16-07
Stltrains, if you have bought a good set of early 60's sieme ... Sherod
10-16-07: Tvad
The free Audiogon trial period is 10 days. If one wishes to have the TP2.1 for an additional 30 days, one can pay for the preamp, and the money will be refunded after the additional 30 days if the unit is returned.
From the Audio Horizons TP2.1 listing:
We are even more persuaded of the superb performance and superior value of the Audio Horizons TP 2.1 than we were of the TP 2.0., so much so that we want you to listen to it in your own home over your own sound system. We therefore offer everyone who qualifies a free home audition...
If you are not persuaded that this is a stunning preamplifier and one you want to keep, return it within ten days.
If it takes longer than 10 days for the TP2.1 to break in, then the ten day free Audiogon trial period is not useful to the end user, and it's unfair to Audio Horizons to give the unit short shrift.
The audition period should be 30 days. Period. Whether one pays in advance or not.
Tvad (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
10-16-07
i would agree with tvad. i know from experience his wire ta ... Grannyring
10-16-07
Bill, i have tried a couple of the ah interconnects and pr ... Sherod
10-16-07
I just have to toast your auditory memory. you are listening ... Gammajo
10-16-07
Joe, i realize that the auditory memory is poor, however, ... Sherod
10-16-07
Ah, so you use as your benchmark the welll memorized live in ... Gammajo
10-16-07
Only mental notes. i would like to have the two preamp versi ... Sherod
10-16-07: Stltrains
Got the CCAs today opened up 2.1 and i must say the layout is superior. Removed the ecc88s that Joseph included cleaned and used the smallest amount of walkers sst on the pins. Joseph had small rubber dampers on the 88s so i put them on the CCAs and installed them in 2.1.
Right off the bat the difference is quite audible. I was told that 80 plus hours will be needed for the nos CCAs to get well broke in.
The only thing i have noticed is a ping from the left side when you tap 2.1 that wasnt there with the 88s.
Now i think i understand what all the excitement is about with siemens CCA tubes being used with Audio Horizon gear.
Sherod hang in there your going to be alright with your upgrade give it some time to work into your system and enjoy the music.
Stltrains (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
10-17-07
I have had my 2.1 upgraded from 2.0 for two weeks now and i ... Grannyring
10-17-07
Strltrains - also take off the rubber dampers and see what i ... Gammajo
10-17-07: Markwatkiss
Gentlemen,this thread is smokin.As you may recall I acquired a REF 3 several weeks ago and have been auditioning and comparing with my TP 2.0nB.Time to share my impressions.
The system:
SOURCE:Denon 3910,fully modified by Audio Reference Mods
INTERCONNECTS:RCA silver handcrafted one metre length
PRE AMPS:AH TP 2.0nB/REF 3
INTERCONNECTS:Silver Bullet 6 XLR's
AMPLIFICATION:Cary V12,modified by Sounds Good To Me(really)
SPEAKER CABLES:ZU Bi wire
SPEAKERS:Innersound EROS 3 Electrostats (passive version)
POWER CORDS:Several after market power cords none of which is expensive or exotic.
To particularize the tube complement in the AH is a quad of
Siemens NOS ECC81.Power cord is a simple Belden one metre length.
Tube complement in the REF 3 is the a quad of Sovtek 6H30P dual triodes plus a 6L6GC and 6H30P in the power supply.
Power cord is factory issue and the size of a small Anaconda I might add.
Both pre amps were auditioned on a variety of my favourite recordings.
FINDINGS:
1.The REF 3 gets everything right,from the strike of a piano key to the pluck of a guitar string.On live recordings there is just more information,in one instance the distinct variations in the pace of the audience hanclapping was evident.A ring of a cell phone and the chuckle of a band member,although subtle was audible.
2.There is a sense of utter poise to the music,the performance is effortless,kinda like Roger Federer on the tennis court.Dynamics are fast and rich,timbres deep and profound.The timing and texture of presence and aliveness is seductive.
3.The balance control is a neat feature,also the remote,now I don't have to rise as often to adjust the volume or pour another glass of wine.
4.Build quality,fit and finish are superb which I would expect from AR,and so it is with the AH.
5.In both units the bass is authoritative and accurate,I could discern no audible difference.The REF 3 shines in the mid and upper ranges it's like uncovering another layer of music,just that little extra level of detail.
In terms of low noise floor both units exhibited dead black silence.
Soundstaging and presentation went to the REF,but not by much.
WHAT DO I KNOW:
1.I know the REF 3 is 4 times the $$$$ of my AH.I find that the REF 3 is superior in the overall presentation of music.
I am of the opinion that side by side blind immediate comparisons would bear this out.Having said that,I believe,taking into account your comments,that if I upgrade my unit to the TP2.1 status ,splurge on a quad of Siemens cca's,and upgrade the power cord that the performance would equal the REF 3 and I would still be ahead about $5K.
2.There is something endearing about AH,Joseph Chow and his trusty left winger that appeals to me.I want these guys to make it and I'm very content to stay in this famalia.
3.I believe I can make improvements elesewhere in my system that will give me a bigger bang for the buck.
I hope you enjoyed the read,it was my first time.
Markwatkiss (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
10-17-07: Andrewdoan
Please be gentle with me my audiophile friends. I am considering to buy the Rogue 99/ Halcro Mc20 to drive my LFT ET8bs. I owned the Bp26/ 4BSST/ Paradigm S2 and sold them all in a month. Huge soundstage but kind of flat and imaging is not quite "there". I love dipole sound and settle down for the ET8Bs that I consider my reference speakers that I will build my system around. In short, Would the TP2.1 better than the 99 in term of sound stage and imaging ? I understand that the 99 only sounds good when cranking up to high level of listenning. So many good testimony, I am tempted to place a call to order the TP2.1. Give me some good reasons, please.
Andrewdoan (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
10-17-07
my upgraded preamp just passed the 100-hour mark. mixed emo ... Sherod
10-17-07
Easy sherod, you'll get there in due time, i know about pati ... Rx8man
10-17-07
I would agree that sonically the tp 2.1n preamp version is c ... Sherod
10-17-07
Sherod, yes it is. really want to hear what victor has to sa ... Grannyring
10-17-07: Grannyring
While I am getting more tube warmth the new version does lack in the one area Sherod keeps bringing up - "breath of life". I like that phase.
Tvad calls it 3D or musical. Thus far, after near 100 hours of burn in, my unit excels in many pure audiophile terms like powerful bass, transparancy, inner detail, imaging, stage size, instrument space and position, clarity at all volumes, purity etc...
It is so much better in these areas that it blew me away. This is all good. Over time I have to agree with Sherod, the newer version is weaker in "breath of life". Combined, all these differences make for a very different sounding preamp.
Perhaps burn in will ultimately bring this attribute to the music.
Bill
Grannyring (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
10-17-07
I have high hopes, bill. at this juncture, i'm kinda sorta m ... Sherod
10-17-07
Gammajo thanks for the input on my pinging or i should say m ... Stltrains
10-17-07
Microphony is typical of siemens cca tubes. they tend to be ... Tvad
10-17-07
Stltrains, regarding the pinging sound on one of your cha ... Sherod
10-17-07: Sherod
Andrewdoan,
I'm sorry that no one has answered your request, so I'm assuming that nobody has had the chance to compare the Rogue with the TP 2.1n. As you know, Audio Horizons offers a trial and money-back guarantee. From a few previous posts there is some confusion as to the adequate time allowed in this trial to fully evaluate the preamp, however, most of the current owners seem to have kept their preamps while making up their minds before the 10 days ended. If you have or can get a Rogue unit for evaluation, I would suggest that you time it to get both the TP 2.1n preamp in at the same time of the Rogue unit and do a fun comparison of both in your system to make up your mind of which you like better. Maybe, someone will still chime in yet to give you their personal opinion of each.
Sherod (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
10-17-07
"over time i have to agree with sherod, the newer versi ... Sherod
10-17-07: Gammajo
StlTRains - The other responders are right that NOS can be microphonic, but I had alot more trouble with microphonics with Siemens E188cc's than with my cca's. I own two seperate quads of these. IMO they should not ring even without the use of dampers becuase all dampers that I have tried also dampen the sound.
By floating the board I meant that Joseph for me (to solve microphonics) did not screw down the board that the tubes are plugged into but rather let it float free. The problem herein is that it needs to be tied down for shipping which IMO is not a big problem.
I use balanced outputs to my amp but unbalanced inputs from my DAC, so I have 1/2B type unit. I did notice quite a positive difference using the balanced outputs versus RCA - quieter, more three dimensional, more air. But much of this could also be due to different IC's. I used AH IC's for the balanced and Guerilla Audio silver for the RCA.
Gammajo (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
10-17-07
Mark - thanks for your detailed, cogent and honest ref 3 com ... Gammajo
10-17-07: Stltrains
Hello guys and let me say thats what i love about this great hobby the support and responses from fellow audiophiles when in need.
This is what i did. I swapped front to back and removed the damper. Same ping but right channel instead of left. I inserted one of the ec 88s into slot 4 and tried no ping. Slots 1 and 3 are the ones i want the CCAs in so i still have most of the benefit of the CCAs. Going to contact my seller and see what he has to say.
Thanks again all.
Stltrains (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
10-17-07
Stltrains, i'm glad to hear that you isolated the bad tube ... Sherod
10-17-07
Good detective work, stltrains. do you notice a more dynamic ... Gammajo
10-17-07
stltrains, gammajo and sherod. just wanted to add these ob ... La45
10-17-07
I put a ec 88 in slot 2 to have balance. contacted my tube m ... Stltrains
10-17-07
La45, according to victor, the new wiring harness has a lo ... Sherod
10-17-07
For the technically-minded, the new output caps in the tp 2. ... Sherod
10-18-07
I use balanced in and outs on my 2.1 upgraded preamp. i unde ... Grannyring
10-18-07
Sherod, are you finding the voices are recessed in relation ... Tvad
10-18-07
Grant, my upgraded preamp just passed the 120 hour mark. ... Sherod
10-18-07
Wide and shallow image. that's precisely what i heard in my ... Tvad
10-18-07
Wide and shallow image. that's precisely what i heard in my ... Tvad
10-18-07
I do not find my upgraded version softer or recessed. my exp ... Grannyring
10-18-07
precisely. it must be an issue of impedance/gain matching. ... Tvad
10-18-07
I will look up the specs for my ss amp tonight. i am also ge ... Grannyring
10-18-07
I auditioned the b version and used the balanced outputs. th ... Tvad
10-18-07
Grant, i feel a bit uncomfortable mainly because i seem to ... Sherod
10-18-07
Another vote for keeping the discussion on the thread as i t ... Gammajo
10-18-07
It's interesting that sherod and i hear the same essential t ... Tvad
10-18-07: Stltrains
Well all i dont have a audition 2.1 any longer. I'm not letting this fine preamp go anywhere I'm buying it. It was not a easy decision as my nuforce p-9 is also a very good performer. Very quite, fast, but in the end i have warmed up to the sweet tubed sound of Josephs very fine 2.1 preamp.
This preamp seems to match up exceptionally well with my ref 9 se v2s and linbrook signature system. Along with my jps sc2 ics and speaker cables i am getting sound that i hope to live with for a long while.
Going to leave the explorer in me locked up and enjoy the beautiful sounds of music i am hearing now from my system. My analog front end is certainly providing the source for a clean, sweet, delivery of musical sounds.
I would like to give Joseph and Victor a big thank you for designing, manufacturing, and running a audio company that puts out super fine gear and offers a high level of customer satisfaction.
Stltrains (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
10-18-07: Sherod
Grant,
I'm not so sure yet that the issue is with the amp interaction. It might be just a coincidence that we both share sister amps. I am going to take an educated guess that based on my experience(with changing out the output caps, experimenting with different brands and values, as well as with many smaller bypass caps)that there might be a phase anamoly or irregularity with the new output caps and the solen bypass caps. In the TP 2.0 version with upgraded Hovland caps, rated at 4.7uf, I tried different values of the same Hovland cap( 1uf,2uf,3.3uf, and 4uf) None sounded as good as the 4.7uf value which Joseph was using. This lead me to believe that Joseph knew what he was doing and had pretty good ears. I later tried various Audiophile-type caps( Dynamicaps,V-caps) with same and different values and always came back to the 4.7uf value. For some reason, this value worked best with my VAC amps and sounded the best to me. Initially, I preferred the V-caps( 4.7uf oil-impregnated) because they just had more life and dynamics to them. But after a while there was this over-warmth and smoothing effect which robbed the music of proper attack to my ears, so I eventually went back to my trusty Hovland caps. It was when I recently found a new power cord line, Fusion Audio) that these really brought out the life and realism of my system, especially the TP 2.0. Everything finally just "clicked" in. Based on my faith of Joseph's ears and work, I decided to try the new upgraded version and that is where I am now after about 130 hours of burn in. One of the things that I noticed when I was experimenting with different caps and bypasses, the preamp never, and I mean never, sounded right with the bypass caps, no matter what value. Every bypass cap caused some type of phase anamoly which skewed the frequency response in an unnatural way. Depending on the value of the bypass, this skewing ,or plateau-effect, if you will, took away that natural balance and breath of life from the music. My TP 2.0 sounded its best when only one value cap alone was used in the outputs. Ultimately, as imperfect as the Hovland 4.7uf is, it sounded the best in the circuit of the TP 2.0. Joseph got it right the first time around, IMHO.
Sherod (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
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